4 ms·

Severe duress often cannot be clearly distinguished from "mental illness" I 100% agree with this in terms of its accuracy in describing the symptoms. And I do

Severe duress often cannot be clearly distinguished from "mental illness" I 100% agree with this in terms of its accuracy in describing the symptoms. And I do not think mental illness should be stigmatized any more than other illnesses should be (which is not at all). The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. To a large extent causality goes out the window. You can't persuade a clinically depressed person to cheer up using a rational argument, the brain chemistry is going to overrule your rationality. So my intent in my initial comment was to draw a distinction between Aaron's explainable behavior (that which was derived from his rational process) and his unexplainable behavior (that which was derived from his brain chemistry getting out of whack and his conclusion that taking his own life was a good decision). I realize my sentiment ignores the possibility that the suicide was a direct and rational response to the prosecutors' tactics.

Mz 14y ago
Among other things, I think you are seriously underestimating the chronic stress that a "prodigy" typically lives with. I walked away from a national merit scholarship and homeschooled my very gifted but also learning disabled sons. Issues like OCD are incredibly common at very high IQs. So are serious social issues. For an introvert, being a social outcast for being too smart may be merely annoying. For an extrovert, it may amount to torture. I think it unlikely you can convince me personally that his depression was entirely due to wonky brain chemistry. What little I know about his life suggests huge confounding factors, well before he was charged with a crime. Peace. And have an upvote.
- grandalf 14y ago
  I'd define having an extremely high IQ has having abnormal brain chemistry :) Surely living among people who are cognitively dissimilar would be very stressful, and living in stressful conditions can be bad for a person's mental health (mental health viewed as something that is fluid and that can change over time and in response to environmental changes).
  - Mz 14y ago
    Unfortunately, you are treading extremely close to saying "high IQ = mental illness". I don't think it has to be that way or should be that way. If I live another fifty years, hopefully I can make some headway on changing that general status quo (edit: I mean the very common view of "there is a fine line between genius and insanity" and the high social stress so many intelligent people routinely endure, yes, at a cost to their mental health).
    - grandalf 14y ago
      I don't think I'm treading that line. Having an IQ that is a few standards of deviation higher than average makes a person quite different from average people... just as a person with average IQ would feel out of place among a group consisting mostly of people with IQs a few standards of deviation below average. However stress is stress. People of any IQ feel stress from a variety of factors. One purpose of the human emotional system is to deal with stress and to respond appropriately... sometimes this means flight, sometimes fight, sometimes take a deep breath, etc. Healthy emotional development is separate from IQ and very dependent on genetics and environment. Pretty much anyone who isn't completely average in all respects is going to find some kinds of interactions with other humans stressful. So I think that it's tough to make the case that certain traits like high IQ are inherently more stressful or make a person more likely to display mentally unhealthy behavior. Which is why I think there is a general quality of mental health, which can get better or worse in the same person over time (and can change quickly and slowly)... which is an accurate descriptor of the meta factors that contribute to the proper functioning of the person's cognitive and emotional systems to respond to the inevitable stresses of daily life.
DanBC2 14y ago
> The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. A minor nitpick: In UK law we have the Mental Capacity Act. People must not be seen as lacking capacity to make decisions just because they have a mental health illness. Even someone detained against their will under section of the Mental Health Act can make decisions about their care. But your point - "People with major depression and suicidal thinking probably lack capacity to make a rational decision about suicide" is true.
- grandalf 14y ago
  That's an important distinction. Certainly suffering from a degree of mental illness does not hinder many of the kinds of decisions needed to maintain personal freedom and dignity, etc.

Mz 14y ago

Among other things, I think you are seriously underestimating the chronic stress that a "prodigy" typically lives with. I walked away from a national merit scholarship and homeschooled my very gifted but also learning disabled sons. Issues like OCD are incredibly common at very high IQs. So are serious social issues. For an introvert, being a social outcast for being too smart may be merely annoying. For an extrovert, it may amount to torture. I think it unlikely you can convince me personally that his depression was entirely due to wonky brain chemistry. What little I know about his life suggests huge confounding factors, well before he was charged with a crime. Peace. And have an upvote.

grandalf 14y ago
I'd define having an extremely high IQ has having abnormal brain chemistry :) Surely living among people who are cognitively dissimilar would be very stressful, and living in stressful conditions can be bad for a person's mental health (mental health viewed as something that is fluid and that can change over time and in response to environmental changes).
- Mz 14y ago
  Unfortunately, you are treading extremely close to saying "high IQ = mental illness". I don't think it has to be that way or should be that way. If I live another fifty years, hopefully I can make some headway on changing that general status quo (edit: I mean the very common view of "there is a fine line between genius and insanity" and the high social stress so many intelligent people routinely endure, yes, at a cost to their mental health).
  - grandalf 14y ago
    I don't think I'm treading that line. Having an IQ that is a few standards of deviation higher than average makes a person quite different from average people... just as a person with average IQ would feel out of place among a group consisting mostly of people with IQs a few standards of deviation below average. However stress is stress. People of any IQ feel stress from a variety of factors. One purpose of the human emotional system is to deal with stress and to respond appropriately... sometimes this means flight, sometimes fight, sometimes take a deep breath, etc. Healthy emotional development is separate from IQ and very dependent on genetics and environment. Pretty much anyone who isn't completely average in all respects is going to find some kinds of interactions with other humans stressful. So I think that it's tough to make the case that certain traits like high IQ are inherently more stressful or make a person more likely to display mentally unhealthy behavior. Which is why I think there is a general quality of mental health, which can get better or worse in the same person over time (and can change quickly and slowly)... which is an accurate descriptor of the meta factors that contribute to the proper functioning of the person's cognitive and emotional systems to respond to the inevitable stresses of daily life.

DanBC2 14y ago

> The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. A minor nitpick: In UK law we have the Mental Capacity Act. People must not be seen as lacking capacity to make decisions just because they have a mental health illness. Even someone detained against their will under section of the Mental Health Act can make decisions about their care. But your point - "People with major depression and suicidal thinking probably lack capacity to make a rational decision about suicide" is true.

grandalf 14y ago
That's an important distinction. Certainly suffering from a degree of mental illness does not hinder many of the kinds of decisions needed to maintain personal freedom and dignity, etc.