4 ms·

Absolutely. This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women, and are something w

by graue 14y ago

Absolutely. This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women, and are something we all need to care about.

derleth 14y ago
> This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems. I know this isn't what academic feminists think. It is, however, what a disturbing number of people who call themselves feminists out in the real world apparently believe.
- graue 14y ago
  Yup. Male privilege exists and is real (and unfair), yet it is also true that gender norms can harm men. It's a shame so many folks act like the truth of one of those statements disproves the other. I guess the combined statement is too subtle to fit in a sound bite or rallying cry.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems." Feminism benefits men as well. Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men, your anger is misapplied.
  - derleth 14y ago
    > Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it? > Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men Thank you for restating my point. > your anger is misapplied. How? I don't understand how my anger is misapplied here.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "> Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it?" Destroying systems of entrenched privilege may not be viewed as beneficial by all men that cling to these systems, no. But equality does provide for a healthier system, if one appreciates women healthy in mind and body. Harping on straw "Feminists" won't improve our situation.
      - derleth 14y ago
        > Harping on straw "Feminists" won't improve our situation. Mentioning they exist is not the same as harping on them. And this points out an asymmetry: Whenever a man focuses on the male perspective of gender equality, people drag out the 'MRA' stereotype. While the stereotypical MRA exists, that stereotype is no more relevant to the issue than the stereotypical straw feminist is relevant to the female perspective of gender equality. Yet, online, in the real world outside of the academy, that MRA stereotype is in constant use. > Destroying systems of entrenched privilege may not be viewed as beneficial by all men that cling to these systems And this is an example. It states that gender equality from the female perspective is automatically equivalent to "Destroying systems of entrenched privilege", which is a courtesy not given to the male perspective on the same concepts. This asymmetry is divisive and serves to perpetuate the pointless hatred that keeps equality from being realized.
      - illuminate 14y ago
        "And this is an example. It states that gender equality from the female perspective is automatically equivalent to "Destroying systems of entrenched privilege", which is a courtesy not given to the male perspective on the same concepts." As I stated, it does by lessening strict gender roles.
        derleth 14y ago
        > As I stated, it does by lessening strict gender roles. But that's also true of looking at gender equality from the male perspective, yet whenever someone attempts that the old MRA strawman stereotypes get thrown around.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

by graue 14y ago

Absolutely. This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women, and are something we all need to care about.

derleth 14y ago

> This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems. I know this isn't what academic feminists think. It is, however, what a disturbing number of people who call themselves feminists out in the real world apparently believe.

graue 14y ago
Yup. Male privilege exists and is real (and unfair), yet it is also true that gender norms can harm men. It's a shame so many folks act like the truth of one of those statements disproves the other. I guess the combined statement is too subtle to fit in a sound bite or rallying cry.
illuminate 14y ago
"And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems." Feminism benefits men as well. Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men, your anger is misapplied.
- derleth 14y ago
  > Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it? > Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men Thank you for restating my point. > your anger is misapplied. How? I don't understand how my anger is misapplied here.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "> Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it?" Destroying systems of entrenched privilege may not be viewed as beneficial by all men that cling to these systems, no. But equality does provide for a healthier system, if one appreciates women healthy in mind and body. Harping on straw "Feminists" won't improve our situation.
    - derleth 14y ago
      > Harping on straw "Feminists" won't improve our situation. Mentioning they exist is not the same as harping on them. And this points out an asymmetry: Whenever a man focuses on the male perspective of gender equality, people drag out the 'MRA' stereotype. While the stereotypical MRA exists, that stereotype is no more relevant to the issue than the stereotypical straw feminist is relevant to the female perspective of gender equality. Yet, online, in the real world outside of the academy, that MRA stereotype is in constant use. > Destroying systems of entrenched privilege may not be viewed as beneficial by all men that cling to these systems And this is an example. It states that gender equality from the female perspective is automatically equivalent to "Destroying systems of entrenched privilege", which is a courtesy not given to the male perspective on the same concepts. This asymmetry is divisive and serves to perpetuate the pointless hatred that keeps equality from being realized.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "And this is an example. It states that gender equality from the female perspective is automatically equivalent to "Destroying systems of entrenched privilege", which is a courtesy not given to the male perspective on the same concepts." As I stated, it does by lessening strict gender roles.
      - derleth 14y ago
        > As I stated, it does by lessening strict gender roles. But that's also true of looking at gender equality from the male perspective, yet whenever someone attempts that the old MRA strawman stereotypes get thrown around.
deleted 14y ago
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