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> Aaron should man up And now we see the consequences of our society's sexism. Nobody tells women to "man up".

by derleth 14y ago

gnaritas 14y ago
I'm sure they do actually, but likely with slightly different language like "stop crying"; same thing. Just because a statement isn't gender neutral doesn't make it sexist.
Mz 14y ago
I am a woman. I go around telling women to "woman up". I try to do so in an empowering way and not be an asshole. Fuck sexism though.
- derleth 14y ago
  > I am a woman. I go around telling women to "woman up". Well, the difference between "woman up" and "man up" is that, for men, showing emotion is a sign of weakness, so "man up" means "don't show emotion". That's a very dangerous thing to tell people who have serious emotional problems.
  - nostrademons 14y ago
    It's not, though. There's a perception that showing emotion is a sign of weakness for men. However, think about how you actually react to men who show emotion. How did you react to Lessig's or Doctorow's posts about Aaron, with all their emotion? Did you think them less of a man for it? I think there is a strong taboo against men appearing out of control of themselves or their situation. But that's not really gendered: when women appear out of control, we label them "crazy bitches".
    - graue 14y ago
      > there is a strong taboo against men appearing out of control of themselves Exactly. This applied to Aaron asking for help he badly needed for his legal fund. This did not apply to Larry or Cory. They may have been sad or angry, but they were not personally scared, threatened, unable to fund their own legal defenses, etc., so they did not violate the taboo. Their posts were more along the lines of a father mourning a lost son. Emotion is expected there.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "There's a perception that showing emotion is a sign of weakness for men." Which is why berating someone with gendered terms is pretty futile, it encourages people to clam up and compartmentalize unhealthily.
  - Mz 14y ago
    I don't understand it that way, but I grew up with a father who fought in two wars and was not afraid to cry in front of others. Maybe you missed my general sentiment: Fuck sexism though. I think you and I are talking at cross purposes.
  - graue 14y ago
    Absolutely. This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women, and are something we all need to care about.
    - derleth 14y ago
      > This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems. I know this isn't what academic feminists think. It is, however, what a disturbing number of people who call themselves feminists out in the real world apparently believe.
      - graue 14y ago
        Yup. Male privilege exists and is real (and unfair), yet it is also true that gender norms can harm men. It's a shame so many folks act like the truth of one of those statements disproves the other. I guess the combined statement is too subtle to fit in a sound bite or rallying cry.
      - illuminate 14y ago
        "And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems." Feminism benefits men as well. Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men, your anger is misapplied.
        derleth 14y ago
        > Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it? > Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men Thank you for restating my point. > your anger is misapplied. How? I don't understand how my anger is misapplied here.
        14y ago
  - dyno12345 14y ago
    I don't think it's showing emotion, I think that it's that we expect men to be self-reliant and should not need or want help from others. Men are responsible for their own outcomes. Women aren't seen as any worse for wanting help, and it's acceptable to attribute their outcomes as caused by their relationships or social environment.

> Aaron should man up And now we see the consequences of our society's sexism. Nobody tells women to "man up".

by derleth 14y ago

> Aaron should man up And now we see the consequences of our society's sexism. Nobody tells women to "man up".

I'm sure they do actually, but likely with slightly different language like "stop crying"; same thing. Just because a statement isn't gender neutral doesn't make it sexist.

Mz 14y ago

I am a woman. I go around telling women to "woman up". I try to do so in an empowering way and not be an asshole. Fuck sexism though.

derleth 14y ago
> I am a woman. I go around telling women to "woman up". Well, the difference between "woman up" and "man up" is that, for men, showing emotion is a sign of weakness, so "man up" means "don't show emotion". That's a very dangerous thing to tell people who have serious emotional problems.
- nostrademons 14y ago
  It's not, though. There's a perception that showing emotion is a sign of weakness for men. However, think about how you actually react to men who show emotion. How did you react to Lessig's or Doctorow's posts about Aaron, with all their emotion? Did you think them less of a man for it? I think there is a strong taboo against men appearing out of control of themselves or their situation. But that's not really gendered: when women appear out of control, we label them "crazy bitches".
  - graue 14y ago
    > there is a strong taboo against men appearing out of control of themselves Exactly. This applied to Aaron asking for help he badly needed for his legal fund. This did not apply to Larry or Cory. They may have been sad or angry, but they were not personally scared, threatened, unable to fund their own legal defenses, etc., so they did not violate the taboo. Their posts were more along the lines of a father mourning a lost son. Emotion is expected there.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "There's a perception that showing emotion is a sign of weakness for men." Which is why berating someone with gendered terms is pretty futile, it encourages people to clam up and compartmentalize unhealthily.
- Mz 14y ago
  I don't understand it that way, but I grew up with a father who fought in two wars and was not afraid to cry in front of others. Maybe you missed my general sentiment: Fuck sexism though. I think you and I are talking at cross purposes.
- graue 14y ago
  Absolutely. This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women, and are something we all need to care about.
  - derleth 14y ago
    > This is a perfect example of how restrictive gender norms (or, what some might call "patriarchy") can harm men as well as women And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems. I know this isn't what academic feminists think. It is, however, what a disturbing number of people who call themselves feminists out in the real world apparently believe.
    - graue 14y ago
      Yup. Male privilege exists and is real (and unfair), yet it is also true that gender norms can harm men. It's a shame so many folks act like the truth of one of those statements disproves the other. I guess the combined statement is too subtle to fit in a sound bite or rallying cry.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "And this is why I hate the term "patriarchy" in this context: It implies men always get the best of it, there are no downsides for males, and therefore we should be dismissive of male problems." Feminism benefits men as well. Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men, your anger is misapplied.
      - derleth 14y ago
        > Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it? > Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men Thank you for restating my point. > your anger is misapplied. How? I don't understand how my anger is misapplied here.
        14y ago
- dyno12345 14y ago
  I don't think it's showing emotion, I think that it's that we expect men to be self-reliant and should not need or want help from others. Men are responsible for their own outcomes. Women aren't seen as any worse for wanting help, and it's acceptable to attribute their outcomes as caused by their relationships or social environment.