24 ms·

God dam I hate the term "man up", it really is a hugely degrading phrase. If someone is having a hard time and asks for the help the worst thing you can do is t

by NZ_Matt 14y ago

God dam I hate the term "man up", it really is a hugely degrading phrase. If someone is having a hard time and asks for the help the worst thing you can do is tell them to "man up" or "get over it".

kamjam 14y ago
Thank you, not sure I could have phrased it any better. I'm not sure many of us will ever fully understand what Aaron went through, something obviously dark enough that he felt the only way out was to take his own life. If some of the condolences and sympathy on offer right now had been given back then maybe a brilliant mind would still be alive. Hopefully all of us will think twice before dismissing calls of help with "man up" from now now.
- lancewiggs 14y ago
  Given Matt's from New Zealand, he would have been exposed to an excellent series of advertisements on depression by a former top All Black - John Kirwan. Kirwan, who was arguably the best All Black of his era, talks frankly about depression, mentions in one that toughening up is the last thing to do, and that the best way to help is to seek help, do the little things that make you happy and so on. It was a brave thing to do, and incredibly powerful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ9yRhCiLfA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ9yRhCiLfA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBikj3kRco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBikj3kRco http://depression.org.nz/ http://depression.org.nz/
MartinCron 14y ago
I would also add "lighten up" and "stop taking things so seriously" to the list of hugely degrading phrases.
- astrodust 14y ago
  It is often difficult to discern between those that will bring excessive drama to any situation and those that are in serious peril.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    The disconnect here is a simple one: how big a peril Aaron was in was not communicated clearly or effectively on the page asking for help. Apparently this was because of some legal constraints. I think that's what threw a lot of people on the wrong track entirely. Had they been in the possession of the full set of facts I'm pretty sure they would have reacted differently. See the page for yourself: https://free.aaronsw.com/ https://free.aaronsw.com/ , it is as non-descriptive as it could possibly be. Even so, these careless and unfounded words must have hurt tremendously, much more so than had nothing been said at all.
    - detst 14y ago
      > Even so, these careless and unfounded words must have hurt tremendously, much more so than had nothing been said at all. It angers me to think that HN could have contributed in any way to the dark place Aaron ended up reaching. More so because many of those comments bothered me at the time and I neither knew Aaron nor the severity of the situation. They were unwarranted even in absence of the full story.
      - astrodust 14y ago
        If you're depressed, the last thing you should do is read comments directed at you. The internet is a bad place at the best of times. Anyone who's suffering should avoid negative sentiment or you'll just find more reasons to be depressed.
    - chernevik 14y ago
      I'm sorry but which "careless and unfounded words" are you specifically referring to? Set among these events, and with a great many people assigning responsibility all over the place, this kind of thing strikes me as nothing like responsible or precise. It was a fundraising post for legal defense. Not a plea of mental health distress. People expressed negative opinions of the request, some in light of the presumed financial position of the defendant. Are we seriously discussing review of those remarks simply for their psychological supportiveness?
protomyth 14y ago
Depends on the context and situation. Between friends, its a pretty good phrase to tell your buddy (regardless of sex), to be the responsible party and take some positive actions. I would never say it to a stranger or someone I didn't know well, but to a friend that needs to hear it, yes. The women I have hung out with haven't taken offense when they had the phrase used on them, and one did use it on me (it was something I needed to hear at the time although I was in a bit of a snit for a couple of days because of her saying it). Thinking about it, there are a lot of phrases and ways to express things that I wouldn't use on a message board or to people I didn't know well. To the people I know well, I'll use any phrase or approach that I think can reach them. Also, I do not see and equivalence between "man up" and "get over it". The former is asking a friend to take some responsibility and action, the later is asking them to get beyond their feelings while assigning no responsibility.
chernevik 14y ago
I don't see how anyone can read that phrase in that thread as referring to Aaron's _depression_. It was entirely in the context of taking responsibility for his _activism_, and under a presumption that he had considerable resources.
herbart 14y ago
It's also sexist, but that's pretty much what you can expect from the tech community. Shameful.

by NZ_Matt 14y ago

God dam I hate the term "man up", it really is a hugely degrading phrase. If someone is having a hard time and asks for the help the worst thing you can do is tell them to "man up" or "get over it".

kamjam 14y ago

Thank you, not sure I could have phrased it any better. I'm not sure many of us will ever fully understand what Aaron went through, something obviously dark enough that he felt the only way out was to take his own life. If some of the condolences and sympathy on offer right now had been given back then maybe a brilliant mind would still be alive. Hopefully all of us will think twice before dismissing calls of help with "man up" from now now.

lancewiggs 14y ago
Given Matt's from New Zealand, he would have been exposed to an excellent series of advertisements on depression by a former top All Black - John Kirwan. Kirwan, who was arguably the best All Black of his era, talks frankly about depression, mentions in one that toughening up is the last thing to do, and that the best way to help is to seek help, do the little things that make you happy and so on. It was a brave thing to do, and incredibly powerful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ9yRhCiLfA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ9yRhCiLfA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBikj3kRco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBikj3kRco http://depression.org.nz/ http://depression.org.nz/

MartinCron 14y ago

I would also add "lighten up" and "stop taking things so seriously" to the list of hugely degrading phrases.

astrodust 14y ago
It is often difficult to discern between those that will bring excessive drama to any situation and those that are in serious peril.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  The disconnect here is a simple one: how big a peril Aaron was in was not communicated clearly or effectively on the page asking for help. Apparently this was because of some legal constraints. I think that's what threw a lot of people on the wrong track entirely. Had they been in the possession of the full set of facts I'm pretty sure they would have reacted differently. See the page for yourself: https://free.aaronsw.com/ https://free.aaronsw.com/ , it is as non-descriptive as it could possibly be. Even so, these careless and unfounded words must have hurt tremendously, much more so than had nothing been said at all.
  - detst 14y ago
    > Even so, these careless and unfounded words must have hurt tremendously, much more so than had nothing been said at all. It angers me to think that HN could have contributed in any way to the dark place Aaron ended up reaching. More so because many of those comments bothered me at the time and I neither knew Aaron nor the severity of the situation. They were unwarranted even in absence of the full story.
    - astrodust 14y ago
      If you're depressed, the last thing you should do is read comments directed at you. The internet is a bad place at the best of times. Anyone who's suffering should avoid negative sentiment or you'll just find more reasons to be depressed.
  - chernevik 14y ago
    I'm sorry but which "careless and unfounded words" are you specifically referring to? Set among these events, and with a great many people assigning responsibility all over the place, this kind of thing strikes me as nothing like responsible or precise. It was a fundraising post for legal defense. Not a plea of mental health distress. People expressed negative opinions of the request, some in light of the presumed financial position of the defendant. Are we seriously discussing review of those remarks simply for their psychological supportiveness?

protomyth 14y ago

Depends on the context and situation. Between friends, its a pretty good phrase to tell your buddy (regardless of sex), to be the responsible party and take some positive actions. I would never say it to a stranger or someone I didn't know well, but to a friend that needs to hear it, yes. The women I have hung out with haven't taken offense when they had the phrase used on them, and one did use it on me (it was something I needed to hear at the time although I was in a bit of a snit for a couple of days because of her saying it). Thinking about it, there are a lot of phrases and ways to express things that I wouldn't use on a message board or to people I didn't know well. To the people I know well, I'll use any phrase or approach that I think can reach them. Also, I do not see and equivalence between "man up" and "get over it". The former is asking a friend to take some responsibility and action, the later is asking them to get beyond their feelings while assigning no responsibility.

chernevik 14y ago

I don't see how anyone can read that phrase in that thread as referring to Aaron's _depression_. It was entirely in the context of taking responsibility for his _activism_, and under a presumption that he had considerable resources.

herbart 14y ago

It's also sexist, but that's pretty much what you can expect from the tech community. Shameful.