3 ms·

I would be able to take this seriously for a second if it at least mentioned the power trip side of it, or the greed of being addicted to collecting virtual st

I would be able to take this seriously for a second if it at least mentioned the power trip side of it, or the greed of being addicted to collecting virtual stuff. But it's all just so great and special... why, they even mention "art" and AAA titles in one breath. I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke, really. The role of violence in storytelling is as old as human history, and it has long served a purpose in conveying values of honesty, courage, confidence and perseverance. It also served a purpose of voyeurism and of Schadenfreude. Again, if you want to fool anyone into thinking you're engaging in serious analysis and reflection, you should at least address one or two of the huge elephants on the couch. /signed, someone who has been playing games since the late 80's and found this article to be a bunch of tripe. Yes, they reflect our mediocre, pitiful state, they don't create it. But mediocre and pitiful they are for the most part. They are either about being an asshole, or having irrelevant stuff. In that sense even Minecraft is crap.. and I played that, even SMP, so I'm not dissing something I don't even know; it's just I also know art, and music, and just sitting in the sun. I know books and stuff.

neumann_alfred 14y ago
I know I'm not being coherent, but just consider how many platformers have collecting coins as a prominent, if not the main mechanic. And nobody ever questions that, do they. Fuck violence; our problems run deeper than even that.
- theorique 14y ago
  Why is collecting coins in games a problem?
  - thwest 14y ago
    Accumulation of wealth creates difficult economic climates.
astrodust 14y ago
Games are not unlike books in that they allow you to experience something you would not otherwise undertake. What is the difference between being immersed in Jack Ryan's adventures in a book and playing Call of Duty where you act as the protagonists and play through a similar narrative? If anything the article doesn't go far enough to draw parallels between violence in video games and other forms of art: literature, movies, or artwork celebrating violent acts. It also missed an opportunity to give a break-down of games sold by level of violence. Pokemon is fundamentally a fighting game, Minecraft involves defending yourself against monsters, Angry Birds is about violent conflict between birds and pigs, and even football games can have violence.
cbs 14y ago
why, they even mention "art" and AAA titles in one breath. I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke, really. Oh please, drop the pretentious attitude. High-budget entertainment isn't ever going to be a stream of critical darlings and everyone know this, I do however look forward to your explanation of exactly why Spec Ops: The Line is of no artistic value.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  I do however look forward to your explanation of exactly why Spec Ops: The Line is of no artistic value. You can wait until you're blue in the face. However, if you let go of the strawman for a sec, I'd happily explain to you why it's not art in my opinion. Anything and everything has "artistic value", even the way the flower lady turns around and smiles.
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
    Of course, it's usually fruitless to define "art"... but I didn't mean to say it has to be something extremely "deep" and personal. Just consider this: most games "think" of the bits of art that are in them as "art assets". And in many cases the music, the textures, the voiceovers; you could replace those with something entirely different, or at least something generic, and the game mechanics would still work exactly the same. I mean, we are talking about games here - well, I am, the article kinda isn't - not about "stories". Yes, games are accompanied by stories, they used to have title screens and now have backdrops for the options menu, they had cover art and now have thumbnails in the steam store, etc., there is an intro, an outro, and while you play you also are exposed to lots of little artsy pieces. Does singing while driving your car turn car driving into art? In the same way I argue adding art to games doesn't automatically make them art, either. Which doesn't mean you couldn't theoretically make art with your car, and sing while you do it. But if you're just commuting, that ain't art (unless it's the opening sequence of Office Space :P). And that's on the level of creativity most AAA games are made. Looking at the gameplay, they are more or less the same. What little art is in them they borrowed from movies, which still do that part so much better I really wish games could go back to actually being games, instead of just bad kitsch. Then we could find out what we still don't know; if a game - the mechanics, not how those mechanics are dressed up - can be art. We're still at the stage were anything that makes you feel something, anything, gets wildly applauded, which seems kinda of sad. Instead of being honest and just saying "hey, this one is not pure shit, which is a welcome change to the usual", people get super emotional and attached. To me that's just Stockholm Syndrome. I'm sure on this planet there is also a person who has the facebook "like" thumbs up tattooed on their body, because it means so much to them. Would it make that symbol art? Not for me. That would just make that person a really sad one in my eyes. Again, definitions vary, but I also wouldn't call anything that obsesses about statistics, sales, and how to addict people to your product even more as "art". As in, the exact same product I might consider art or not art depending on why and how it was produced. I'm not even sure I'd allow anything produced while wearing a tie period. Artists are rare, they're kinda the original hackers if you think about it.. and just like everybody and their dog considers themselves a hacker, so it is with art. That's fine, but so is being a jaded critic. Yes, violence can be used to tell a story about courage. But when it comes to games, and even many movies, the stories about "courage"* are actually just a pretext for violence.... duh! I doesn't take Albert Einstein to notice that, either, so it's really hard for me to assume ignorance instead of malice here. That crap hiding behind what precious few of truly great things humanity created, just bah! * I put that in quotes because it doesn't take courage to be shot at by 20000 people and not get hit once, even if the actor pants and acts all tense.. same goes for most games, where loosing, or not getting a hint what to click within 5 seconds of starting, might loose potential customers and therefore gets cut from the game, where every slightest challenge is after a checkpoint, unless it's a roguelike or bullet hell shooter. Courage, pah. That's just dreaming. Every game has a wiki dedicated to them and in general, most gaming is about trying to avoid challenge while getting to see the art assets. People are min/maxing because that's the best you can do with this stuff. They don't play games to grow as persons or see life from different angles; who the fuck does the article author think they're kidding? Games are played to kill time. I think it was Thoreau who said "as if you could kill time without injuring eternity". I wasted a lot of time on games in my life, but I will not waste even more by standing idly while such hideous crap as the article linked here is spouted... I can at least take all that wasted time and turn it into venom. I'm a former hardcore gamer warning casuals of the vampires that are indeed lurking. Don't believe a word these assholes say, don't even bother to pirate their products, and don't you dare paying for that cycle to continue. Just look at them, point, laugh, and move on.

neumann_alfred 14y ago

I know I'm not being coherent, but just consider how many platformers have collecting coins as a prominent, if not the main mechanic. And nobody ever questions that, do they. Fuck violence; our problems run deeper than even that.

theorique 14y ago
Why is collecting coins in games a problem?
- thwest 14y ago
  Accumulation of wealth creates difficult economic climates.

astrodust 14y ago

Games are not unlike books in that they allow you to experience something you would not otherwise undertake. What is the difference between being immersed in Jack Ryan's adventures in a book and playing Call of Duty where you act as the protagonists and play through a similar narrative? If anything the article doesn't go far enough to draw parallels between violence in video games and other forms of art: literature, movies, or artwork celebrating violent acts. It also missed an opportunity to give a break-down of games sold by level of violence. Pokemon is fundamentally a fighting game, Minecraft involves defending yourself against monsters, Angry Birds is about violent conflict between birds and pigs, and even football games can have violence.

cbs 14y ago

why, they even mention "art" and AAA titles in one breath. I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke, really. Oh please, drop the pretentious attitude. High-budget entertainment isn't ever going to be a stream of critical darlings and everyone know this, I do however look forward to your explanation of exactly why Spec Ops: The Line is of no artistic value.

neumann_alfred 14y ago
I do however look forward to your explanation of exactly why Spec Ops: The Line is of no artistic value. You can wait until you're blue in the face. However, if you let go of the strawman for a sec, I'd happily explain to you why it's not art in my opinion. Anything and everything has "artistic value", even the way the flower lady turns around and smiles.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  Of course, it's usually fruitless to define "art"... but I didn't mean to say it has to be something extremely "deep" and personal. Just consider this: most games "think" of the bits of art that are in them as "art assets". And in many cases the music, the textures, the voiceovers; you could replace those with something entirely different, or at least something generic, and the game mechanics would still work exactly the same. I mean, we are talking about games here - well, I am, the article kinda isn't - not about "stories". Yes, games are accompanied by stories, they used to have title screens and now have backdrops for the options menu, they had cover art and now have thumbnails in the steam store, etc., there is an intro, an outro, and while you play you also are exposed to lots of little artsy pieces. Does singing while driving your car turn car driving into art? In the same way I argue adding art to games doesn't automatically make them art, either. Which doesn't mean you couldn't theoretically make art with your car, and sing while you do it. But if you're just commuting, that ain't art (unless it's the opening sequence of Office Space :P). And that's on the level of creativity most AAA games are made. Looking at the gameplay, they are more or less the same. What little art is in them they borrowed from movies, which still do that part so much better I really wish games could go back to actually being games, instead of just bad kitsch. Then we could find out what we still don't know; if a game - the mechanics, not how those mechanics are dressed up - can be art. We're still at the stage were anything that makes you feel something, anything, gets wildly applauded, which seems kinda of sad. Instead of being honest and just saying "hey, this one is not pure shit, which is a welcome change to the usual", people get super emotional and attached. To me that's just Stockholm Syndrome. I'm sure on this planet there is also a person who has the facebook "like" thumbs up tattooed on their body, because it means so much to them. Would it make that symbol art? Not for me. That would just make that person a really sad one in my eyes. Again, definitions vary, but I also wouldn't call anything that obsesses about statistics, sales, and how to addict people to your product even more as "art". As in, the exact same product I might consider art or not art depending on why and how it was produced. I'm not even sure I'd allow anything produced while wearing a tie period. Artists are rare, they're kinda the original hackers if you think about it.. and just like everybody and their dog considers themselves a hacker, so it is with art. That's fine, but so is being a jaded critic. Yes, violence can be used to tell a story about courage. But when it comes to games, and even many movies, the stories about "courage"* are actually just a pretext for violence.... duh! I doesn't take Albert Einstein to notice that, either, so it's really hard for me to assume ignorance instead of malice here. That crap hiding behind what precious few of truly great things humanity created, just bah! * I put that in quotes because it doesn't take courage to be shot at by 20000 people and not get hit once, even if the actor pants and acts all tense.. same goes for most games, where loosing, or not getting a hint what to click within 5 seconds of starting, might loose potential customers and therefore gets cut from the game, where every slightest challenge is after a checkpoint, unless it's a roguelike or bullet hell shooter. Courage, pah. That's just dreaming. Every game has a wiki dedicated to them and in general, most gaming is about trying to avoid challenge while getting to see the art assets. People are min/maxing because that's the best you can do with this stuff. They don't play games to grow as persons or see life from different angles; who the fuck does the article author think they're kidding? Games are played to kill time. I think it was Thoreau who said "as if you could kill time without injuring eternity". I wasted a lot of time on games in my life, but I will not waste even more by standing idly while such hideous crap as the article linked here is spouted... I can at least take all that wasted time and turn it into venom. I'm a former hardcore gamer warning casuals of the vampires that are indeed lurking. Don't believe a word these assholes say, don't even bother to pirate their products, and don't you dare paying for that cycle to continue. Just look at them, point, laugh, and move on.