9 ms·

Video games don't create violence in society, they reflect it

52 points by zachinglis 14y ago

Jailout2000 14y ago
reflect*, Sir.
- exodust 14y ago
  'Rerflect' might be a new word describing an unrealistic reflection of reality. Where people sitting down are actually running around throwing grenades at each other in a post-apocalyptic world with invisible walls. It's rerality. Modern violent games seem to be a way of playing out the worst possible scenarios. Actually being in that situation with guns firing would be horrible and scary. But we've made a competitive sport out of that which we try to avoid as a society - violence and destruction. Must be in our genes. Along with the virtual gun-lovers, the best(most absurd) irony in years, that the gun lobby criticizes violent games, when most gun lobbyists would play the hell out of them! Gun enthusiasts who play video games, would play first person shooters without a doubt.
neumann_alfred 14y ago
I would be able to take this seriously for a second if it at least mentioned the power trip side of it, or the greed of being addicted to collecting virtual stuff. But it's all just so great and special... why, they even mention "art" and AAA titles in one breath. I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke, really. The role of violence in storytelling is as old as human history, and it has long served a purpose in conveying values of honesty, courage, confidence and perseverance. It also served a purpose of voyeurism and of Schadenfreude. Again, if you want to fool anyone into thinking you're engaging in serious analysis and reflection, you should at least address one or two of the huge elephants on the couch. /signed, someone who has been playing games since the late 80's and found this article to be a bunch of tripe. Yes, they reflect our mediocre, pitiful state, they don't create it. But mediocre and pitiful they are for the most part. They are either about being an asshole, or having irrelevant stuff. In that sense even Minecraft is crap.. and I played that, even SMP, so I'm not dissing something I don't even know; it's just I also know art, and music, and just sitting in the sun. I know books and stuff.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  I know I'm not being coherent, but just consider how many platformers have collecting coins as a prominent, if not the main mechanic. And nobody ever questions that, do they. Fuck violence; our problems run deeper than even that.
  - theorique 14y ago
    Why is collecting coins in games a problem?
    - thwest 14y ago
      Accumulation of wealth creates difficult economic climates.
- astrodust 14y ago
  Games are not unlike books in that they allow you to experience something you would not otherwise undertake. What is the difference between being immersed in Jack Ryan's adventures in a book and playing Call of Duty where you act as the protagonists and play through a similar narrative? If anything the article doesn't go far enough to draw parallels between violence in video games and other forms of art: literature, movies, or artwork celebrating violent acts. It also missed an opportunity to give a break-down of games sold by level of violence. Pokemon is fundamentally a fighting game, Minecraft involves defending yourself against monsters, Angry Birds is about violent conflict between birds and pigs, and even football games can have violence.
- cbs 14y ago
  why, they even mention "art" and AAA titles in one breath. I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke, really. Oh please, drop the pretentious attitude. High-budget entertainment isn't ever going to be a stream of critical darlings and everyone know this, I do however look forward to your explanation of exactly why Spec Ops: The Line is of no artistic value.
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
sp332 14y ago
Hasn't violence in video games been going up as violent crime (in the US at least) has been declining?
- astrodust 14y ago
  Haven't box office revenues been going up even as people pirate movies? Facts won't interfere with anyone's agenda.
nsxwolf 14y ago
I've yet to see "Columbine: The Game". Most violent video games are war themed, and since when did we find fighting in ostensibly just wars to be objectionable? As a nation we troll high schools to get as many 17 and 18 year olds as we can to fight wars for us and we think that's OK. Not seeing how Call of Duty turns anyone into a killer. All kids play video games. That means killer kids play the same games as non-killer kids. What's that thing about correlation and causation again?
- mgrier123 14y ago
  I agree. We've been making movies about war since the dawn of film making. I mean sure, movies like Birth of a Nation and Saving Private Ryan depict it differently, but we've still been doing it in film forever. And in terms of art, for hundreds if not thousands of years. The only difference between, Saving Private Ryan and say Call of Duty 2 is that you are in control of a soldier who is shooting enemy soldiers, and I guess it's this difference that people are harping on, not that I agree with this idea. People have said similar things regarding books, pictures, movies, etc. and this is nothing new and it's all been for the same reasons: when it's politically advantageous and so as not to blame bad parenting.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    The Iliad is one of our oldest pieces of narrative writing in human history. It's about a war.
- saraid216 14y ago
  > I've yet to see "Columbine: The Game". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre_RPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre_RPG! That exclamation point is part of the URL. -_-
  - anonymoushn 14y ago
    If anyone does try playing the game, be sure to kill everyone you can in the school before going to the library. Otherwise you will be underlevelled when you get to hell.
jug6ernaut 14y ago
(sorry hijacking post a little) I find it hard to take any argument against such things(video games, guns, movies ect) seriously when these arguments taking place only happen when it is politically advantageous for politicians. If these arguments being made are valid then they should be made anyways. These are not small issues, but issues that go down to the base of our society. If they are not valid enough to be made on there own ground why should i take them seriously when they are projected into the limelight by a tragedy? Note I am not saying that i am for or against any of these arguments just stating that if they are valid then they should be able to be viewed in there own context. Of course we have to take recent(any and all) events into account but it must be done so with a clear head. Much like the current outrage regarding Aaron Swartz, is it a tragedy, absolutely, but to go out instantly and call for someones head is irresponsible and illogical. Rash decisions lead to only more mistakes.
- camus 14y ago
  What guns are made for? you have a case for video games and movies but guns are basically made to kill.
- sdh 14y ago
  you can't change anything without critical mass. it usually takes a national disaster or profound fear of something to mobilize support for popular change. depending on your point of view, that's either a feature or fault of our society.
demian 14y ago
What if there isn't causality, but something more systemic, a vicious circle, a negative feedback loop?
DrDreams 14y ago
They don't just reflect it, they reflect it, distort it and magnify it. Video games produce versions of the violence in society which are unrealistic, in which everyone can get up off the floor after being shot by being reloaded and start again. Video games produces thousands of times as many violent events as in real life. The amount of resources (money and time devoted) in creating and playing video games rivals the amount of time and energy people spend practicing at making real life into a safe experience. Much more than a distraction, they are the centerpiece, a devotion to delusional destruction.
- nodata 14y ago
  Video games produces thousands of times as many violent events as in real life. Extraordinary claims... But seriously, back this up with some evidence. Compare the amount of violence today with the amount of violence a century ago. Oh yeah, that's also not citing any evidence.
  - holyhandgrenade 14y ago
    Violence today is much lower and much less prevalent as a part of daily life than it was a century ago. Of course, this greatly depends on where you are. Arizona was still wild west, gold mines still hung folks they accused of stealing ore (Vulture Mine) Wars were still being waged between native peoples as well as banditos and cowboys holding up banks, transports, and the likes. Tombstone and the O.K. Corral was just over 100 years ago. And back then, media really wasn't an issue since the average person in these parts was 100% illiterate. Not to mention in the past 50 years, violence and violent crime in the US is at a near all-time low compared to the 1970's or 1990's. Also explain how more peaceful societies, such as the Dutch, or the Norwegians, consume more of our violent video games than we do?
  - pchristensen 14y ago
    I played video games from ages ~8-19, and I probably killed a few hundred thousand animals, people, soldiers, knights, Nazis, medieval soldiers and archers, spaceships, aliens, etc. Very few people in history can even claim responsibility for that many deaths, let alone committing them. But millions of people have played video games more than me.
analog 14y ago
The studies so far don't seem to have been conclusive either way. What we have so far though should be enough to cause concern. http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/whats-the-psychological-effect-of-violent-video-games-on-children.html http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/... FWIW I personally enjoy first person shooters, but I don't see any great benefit that comes from them.
- bitwize 14y ago
  They help you think tactically. Things like use of cover, flanking the enemy, etc. The Marines used Doom to train recruits in basic tactics since the 90s. Like any video game they entrain you to mentally follow a complex unfolding scenario in real time given limited visual/auditory input. I wouldn't recommend them for a kid, but for an adult or mature, responsible teenager there are some cognitive benefits.
  - analog 14y ago
    So, like sport, but without the exercise? Actually I agree with you about the mental side having some benefits, but I just don't see any specific benefit from the violence. Like you say, any other video game could provide the same.
    - bitwize 14y ago
      There's an upcoming game called Shootmania that is an explicitly nonviolent FPS: guns fire bursts of light rather than bullets and slain characters sort of "derezz" like in Tron rather than bleed and gib. So maybe the violence is an optional component of this sort of game after all.
donpark 14y ago
This article is no more than a summary of consensus among game developers, publishers, and media.
brownbat 14y ago
Violent crime has been declining since 1991, and we haven't had a homicide rate so low as 2011 since 1963.* I'm not sure violence in society and violence in media are really correlated, certainly not violent video games. Some might argue violent video games are providing an outlet, I don't know if that's true either. Maybe we've just entered an age of distraction, and Youtube is really effective at keeping criminals (or victims?) off the streets, better than any after school basketball program. * Wikipedia provides a table illustrating declining crime rates, compiled from US Bureau of Justice and FBI statistics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crime_over_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crim...
dimitar 14y ago
There are violent video games everywhere where kids are wealthy enough to buy them. While games are blamed everywhere some societies are more violent than others. Why isn't any discussion about violent video games international? Also, gun violence actually decreased in the US since the late 80s, before the release of Wolfenstein and Doom so
elviejo 14y ago
It's called a positive feedback loop.

52 points by zachinglis 14y ago

Jailout2000 14y ago

reflect*, Sir.

exodust 14y ago
'Rerflect' might be a new word describing an unrealistic reflection of reality. Where people sitting down are actually running around throwing grenades at each other in a post-apocalyptic world with invisible walls. It's rerality. Modern violent games seem to be a way of playing out the worst possible scenarios. Actually being in that situation with guns firing would be horrible and scary. But we've made a competitive sport out of that which we try to avoid as a society - violence and destruction. Must be in our genes. Along with the virtual gun-lovers, the best(most absurd) irony in years, that the gun lobby criticizes violent games, when most gun lobbyists would play the hell out of them! Gun enthusiasts who play video games, would play first person shooters without a doubt.

neumann_alfred 14y ago

I would be able to take this seriously for a second if it at least mentioned the power trip side of it, or the greed of being addicted to collecting virtual stuff. But it's all just so great and special... why, they even mention "art" and AAA titles in one breath. I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke, really. The role of violence in storytelling is as old as human history, and it has long served a purpose in conveying values of honesty, courage, confidence and perseverance. It also served a purpose of voyeurism and of Schadenfreude. Again, if you want to fool anyone into thinking you're engaging in serious analysis and reflection, you should at least address one or two of the huge elephants on the couch. /signed, someone who has been playing games since the late 80's and found this article to be a bunch of tripe. Yes, they reflect our mediocre, pitiful state, they don't create it. But mediocre and pitiful they are for the most part. They are either about being an asshole, or having irrelevant stuff. In that sense even Minecraft is crap.. and I played that, even SMP, so I'm not dissing something I don't even know; it's just I also know art, and music, and just sitting in the sun. I know books and stuff.

neumann_alfred 14y ago
I know I'm not being coherent, but just consider how many platformers have collecting coins as a prominent, if not the main mechanic. And nobody ever questions that, do they. Fuck violence; our problems run deeper than even that.
- theorique 14y ago
  Why is collecting coins in games a problem?
  - thwest 14y ago
    Accumulation of wealth creates difficult economic climates.
astrodust 14y ago
Games are not unlike books in that they allow you to experience something you would not otherwise undertake. What is the difference between being immersed in Jack Ryan's adventures in a book and playing Call of Duty where you act as the protagonists and play through a similar narrative? If anything the article doesn't go far enough to draw parallels between violence in video games and other forms of art: literature, movies, or artwork celebrating violent acts. It also missed an opportunity to give a break-down of games sold by level of violence. Pokemon is fundamentally a fighting game, Minecraft involves defending yourself against monsters, Angry Birds is about violent conflict between birds and pigs, and even football games can have violence.
cbs 14y ago
why, they even mention "art" and AAA titles in one breath. I'm not sure if I should laugh or puke, really. Oh please, drop the pretentious attitude. High-budget entertainment isn't ever going to be a stream of critical darlings and everyone know this, I do however look forward to your explanation of exactly why Spec Ops: The Line is of no artistic value.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago

sp332 14y ago

Hasn't violence in video games been going up as violent crime (in the US at least) has been declining?

astrodust 14y ago
Haven't box office revenues been going up even as people pirate movies? Facts won't interfere with anyone's agenda.

nsxwolf 14y ago

I've yet to see "Columbine: The Game". Most violent video games are war themed, and since when did we find fighting in ostensibly just wars to be objectionable? As a nation we troll high schools to get as many 17 and 18 year olds as we can to fight wars for us and we think that's OK. Not seeing how Call of Duty turns anyone into a killer. All kids play video games. That means killer kids play the same games as non-killer kids. What's that thing about correlation and causation again?

mgrier123 14y ago
I agree. We've been making movies about war since the dawn of film making. I mean sure, movies like Birth of a Nation and Saving Private Ryan depict it differently, but we've still been doing it in film forever. And in terms of art, for hundreds if not thousands of years. The only difference between, Saving Private Ryan and say Call of Duty 2 is that you are in control of a soldier who is shooting enemy soldiers, and I guess it's this difference that people are harping on, not that I agree with this idea. People have said similar things regarding books, pictures, movies, etc. and this is nothing new and it's all been for the same reasons: when it's politically advantageous and so as not to blame bad parenting.
- saraid216 14y ago
  The Iliad is one of our oldest pieces of narrative writing in human history. It's about a war.
saraid216 14y ago
> I've yet to see "Columbine: The Game". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre_RPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre_RPG! That exclamation point is part of the URL. -_-
- anonymoushn 14y ago
  If anyone does try playing the game, be sure to kill everyone you can in the school before going to the library. Otherwise you will be underlevelled when you get to hell.

jug6ernaut 14y ago

(sorry hijacking post a little) I find it hard to take any argument against such things(video games, guns, movies ect) seriously when these arguments taking place only happen when it is politically advantageous for politicians. If these arguments being made are valid then they should be made anyways. These are not small issues, but issues that go down to the base of our society. If they are not valid enough to be made on there own ground why should i take them seriously when they are projected into the limelight by a tragedy? Note I am not saying that i am for or against any of these arguments just stating that if they are valid then they should be able to be viewed in there own context. Of course we have to take recent(any and all) events into account but it must be done so with a clear head. Much like the current outrage regarding Aaron Swartz, is it a tragedy, absolutely, but to go out instantly and call for someones head is irresponsible and illogical. Rash decisions lead to only more mistakes.

camus 14y ago
What guns are made for? you have a case for video games and movies but guns are basically made to kill.
sdh 14y ago
you can't change anything without critical mass. it usually takes a national disaster or profound fear of something to mobilize support for popular change. depending on your point of view, that's either a feature or fault of our society.

demian 14y ago

What if there isn't causality, but something more systemic, a vicious circle, a negative feedback loop?

DrDreams 14y ago

They don't just reflect it, they reflect it, distort it and magnify it. Video games produce versions of the violence in society which are unrealistic, in which everyone can get up off the floor after being shot by being reloaded and start again. Video games produces thousands of times as many violent events as in real life. The amount of resources (money and time devoted) in creating and playing video games rivals the amount of time and energy people spend practicing at making real life into a safe experience. Much more than a distraction, they are the centerpiece, a devotion to delusional destruction.

nodata 14y ago
Video games produces thousands of times as many violent events as in real life. Extraordinary claims... But seriously, back this up with some evidence. Compare the amount of violence today with the amount of violence a century ago. Oh yeah, that's also not citing any evidence.
- holyhandgrenade 14y ago
  Violence today is much lower and much less prevalent as a part of daily life than it was a century ago. Of course, this greatly depends on where you are. Arizona was still wild west, gold mines still hung folks they accused of stealing ore (Vulture Mine) Wars were still being waged between native peoples as well as banditos and cowboys holding up banks, transports, and the likes. Tombstone and the O.K. Corral was just over 100 years ago. And back then, media really wasn't an issue since the average person in these parts was 100% illiterate. Not to mention in the past 50 years, violence and violent crime in the US is at a near all-time low compared to the 1970's or 1990's. Also explain how more peaceful societies, such as the Dutch, or the Norwegians, consume more of our violent video games than we do?
- pchristensen 14y ago
  I played video games from ages ~8-19, and I probably killed a few hundred thousand animals, people, soldiers, knights, Nazis, medieval soldiers and archers, spaceships, aliens, etc. Very few people in history can even claim responsibility for that many deaths, let alone committing them. But millions of people have played video games more than me.

analog 14y ago

The studies so far don't seem to have been conclusive either way. What we have so far though should be enough to cause concern. http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/whats-the-psychological-effect-of-violent-video-games-on-children.html http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/... FWIW I personally enjoy first person shooters, but I don't see any great benefit that comes from them.

bitwize 14y ago
They help you think tactically. Things like use of cover, flanking the enemy, etc. The Marines used Doom to train recruits in basic tactics since the 90s. Like any video game they entrain you to mentally follow a complex unfolding scenario in real time given limited visual/auditory input. I wouldn't recommend them for a kid, but for an adult or mature, responsible teenager there are some cognitive benefits.
- analog 14y ago
  So, like sport, but without the exercise? Actually I agree with you about the mental side having some benefits, but I just don't see any specific benefit from the violence. Like you say, any other video game could provide the same.
  - bitwize 14y ago
    There's an upcoming game called Shootmania that is an explicitly nonviolent FPS: guns fire bursts of light rather than bullets and slain characters sort of "derezz" like in Tron rather than bleed and gib. So maybe the violence is an optional component of this sort of game after all.

donpark 14y ago

This article is no more than a summary of consensus among game developers, publishers, and media.

brownbat 14y ago

Violent crime has been declining since 1991, and we haven't had a homicide rate so low as 2011 since 1963.* I'm not sure violence in society and violence in media are really correlated, certainly not violent video games. Some might argue violent video games are providing an outlet, I don't know if that's true either. Maybe we've just entered an age of distraction, and Youtube is really effective at keeping criminals (or victims?) off the streets, better than any after school basketball program. * Wikipedia provides a table illustrating declining crime rates, compiled from US Bureau of Justice and FBI statistics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crime_over_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crim...

dimitar 14y ago

There are violent video games everywhere where kids are wealthy enough to buy them. While games are blamed everywhere some societies are more violent than others. Why isn't any discussion about violent video games international? Also, gun violence actually decreased in the US since the late 80s, before the release of Wolfenstein and Doom so

elviejo 14y ago

It's called a positive feedback loop.