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I don't see how anybody could look at the social changes of the last 50 years and see all good or all bad. I don't. Certainly at some point the human population

I don't see how anybody could look at the social changes of the last 50 years and see all good or all bad. I don't. Certainly at some point the human population needs to stop growing or we will have to begin colonizing other planets. So a lower birthrate is in some ways good, even if it causes other problems. On the other hand, when couples decide that their marriage "is no longer serving ... their childrens' needs", they are most likely wrong. Children grow up with fewer problems if their parents stay together, on average. Easier divorce in cases of abuse is good. But how common is that out of the 50% of first marriages that break up? Divorce in cases of boredom have a high cost on children with little social benefit. In many ways we are better off than our parents and grandparents. But I don't think cheap sex and disposable relationships represent an advance.

illuminate 14y ago
"I don't think cheap sex and disposable relationships represent an advance." Neither are new. The only difference is that the woman isn't shamed into poverty if she gets out of them without a shotgun marriage.
- jacoblyles 14y ago
  The magnitude of it is new. The normalization of it is new. A marriage means a lot less than it used to. It's a status symbol, or a source of entertainment that can be disregarded when it no longer entertains.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "The normalization of it is new. A marriage means a lot less than it used to. It's a status symbol, or a source of entertainment that can be disregarded when it no longer entertains." And thank goodness for that. You have an overinflated opinion of what marriage "used to mean". People having an out from abuse and misery is worth it all. Your efforts to shame the divorced are moralizing, not "for the children". Marriages are not happy because they're forced through law and social stigma. The option to leave is freedom.
philwelch 14y ago
It need not be outright abuse for it to be an unhealthy relationship. If your marriage is characterized by constant bickering, or by a partner who stays long hours at work followed by long hours at the bar every day just to avoid a spouse they have grown to detest, there may not be any actual abuse but it's hard to see that as a healthy environment to raise a child in. Unfortunately, these are exactly the kinds of things that are difficult to capture in statistics, particularly the very broad statistics you're discussing. It's also hard to see why decreased birthrates, delayed marriage, and delayed childbirth are bad moves. High birthrates and family formation early in life are more of an r-strategy. Moving to a K-strategy is better for the children you do have, which is the entire point. As a side effect, maybe young people have to find outlets other than marrying at age 16 and having babies to satisfy their sexual urges, but what's the harm in that? You could plausibly say that most of the harm, in terms of single mothers, comes from the war on drugs, which affects minorities and the lower classes the most. It's two-faced for conservatives to point at certain communities for having so many children out of wedlock while locking up alarming proportions of their men for victimless crimes and turning them into hardened criminals. Fundamentally, I think people more qualified to make decisions about their own families and relationships than the Pope, the government, or you and I.
- jacoblyles 14y ago
  Either those "unhealthy relationships" are incredibly uncommon as a proportion of marriages, or it is better for children to live in a marriage with an "unhealthy relationship" than a straight-up broken home. Decreased birthrates pose problems for current economic systems which are premised on taxing the young to pay for the old. Later children are more likely to have birth defects. But like I said, ultimately it is necessary, so it is a mixed bag. I totally agree with you on the War on Drugs. A legal system that sends 28% of black males to at least one year of prison undoubtably has something to do with why 80% of black children in the US grow up without fathers, and that undoubtably has something to do with why 28% of black males in the US spend at least a year in prison.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    I think it's hard to discuss these statistics in any detail without even looking at them, but this isn't a controlled experiment. If the worst marriages selectively end in divorce, you're comparing single parenthood to the marriages that are healthy enough to continue, not to the marriages the children would have actually been raised in. Feel free to email me if you want to continue this discussion. It's interesting and I'm enjoying it, but it's grown into a bit of a tangent.

illuminate 14y ago

"I don't think cheap sex and disposable relationships represent an advance." Neither are new. The only difference is that the woman isn't shamed into poverty if she gets out of them without a shotgun marriage.

jacoblyles 14y ago
The magnitude of it is new. The normalization of it is new. A marriage means a lot less than it used to. It's a status symbol, or a source of entertainment that can be disregarded when it no longer entertains.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "The normalization of it is new. A marriage means a lot less than it used to. It's a status symbol, or a source of entertainment that can be disregarded when it no longer entertains." And thank goodness for that. You have an overinflated opinion of what marriage "used to mean". People having an out from abuse and misery is worth it all. Your efforts to shame the divorced are moralizing, not "for the children". Marriages are not happy because they're forced through law and social stigma. The option to leave is freedom.

philwelch 14y ago

It need not be outright abuse for it to be an unhealthy relationship. If your marriage is characterized by constant bickering, or by a partner who stays long hours at work followed by long hours at the bar every day just to avoid a spouse they have grown to detest, there may not be any actual abuse but it's hard to see that as a healthy environment to raise a child in. Unfortunately, these are exactly the kinds of things that are difficult to capture in statistics, particularly the very broad statistics you're discussing. It's also hard to see why decreased birthrates, delayed marriage, and delayed childbirth are bad moves. High birthrates and family formation early in life are more of an r-strategy. Moving to a K-strategy is better for the children you do have, which is the entire point. As a side effect, maybe young people have to find outlets other than marrying at age 16 and having babies to satisfy their sexual urges, but what's the harm in that? You could plausibly say that most of the harm, in terms of single mothers, comes from the war on drugs, which affects minorities and the lower classes the most. It's two-faced for conservatives to point at certain communities for having so many children out of wedlock while locking up alarming proportions of their men for victimless crimes and turning them into hardened criminals. Fundamentally, I think people more qualified to make decisions about their own families and relationships than the Pope, the government, or you and I.

jacoblyles 14y ago
Either those "unhealthy relationships" are incredibly uncommon as a proportion of marriages, or it is better for children to live in a marriage with an "unhealthy relationship" than a straight-up broken home. Decreased birthrates pose problems for current economic systems which are premised on taxing the young to pay for the old. Later children are more likely to have birth defects. But like I said, ultimately it is necessary, so it is a mixed bag. I totally agree with you on the War on Drugs. A legal system that sends 28% of black males to at least one year of prison undoubtably has something to do with why 80% of black children in the US grow up without fathers, and that undoubtably has something to do with why 28% of black males in the US spend at least a year in prison.
- philwelch 14y ago
  I think it's hard to discuss these statistics in any detail without even looking at them, but this isn't a controlled experiment. If the worst marriages selectively end in divorce, you're comparing single parenthood to the marriages that are healthy enough to continue, not to the marriages the children would have actually been raised in. Feel free to email me if you want to continue this discussion. It's interesting and I'm enjoying it, but it's grown into a bit of a tangent.