4 ms·

I don't think this is generally true. The purpose of long form writing is to make the reader draw a conclusion that they may not agree with at the beginning of

by johnfn 14y ago

I don't think this is generally true. The purpose of long form writing is to make the reader draw a conclusion that they may not agree with at the beginning of the article. Studies have shown that once we form a conclusion, we're much less likely to change our minds, so if an article lead with a controversial point we'd internally say "no!" and stick to it rather than letting the article make its point. By not knowing exactly what an article is arguing, we're more receptive to things that could go against our intuition. I do agree that TL;DRs can be elided for articles that simply state facts or uncontroversial ideas.

Charlesmigli 14y ago
Yes I agree. tl;drs versions are especially useful for high quality content like the articles on http://longreads.com http://longreads.com.
deleted 14y ago
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fusiongyro 14y ago
That's both a very narrow, unhealthy view of writing and a pretty fatalistic attitude towards your readers. I don't like TL;DR any more than the author of the article, but I don't think having an abstract or brief synopsis decreases the likelihood of you "winning" the essay—or if it did, that this alone would constitute a good reason not to use them.
- johnfn 14y ago
  I think you misunderstood my comment. I wasn't speaking just about having a TL;DR or not but instead more about the difference between long essays and short passages. Characterizing my opinion of writing as either something you 'win' or 'lose' is itself narrow (and frankly, almost insulting). I have to feel that you coming off this way is a byproduct of the Internet. I'm not trying to chastise you here. I understand that what I wrote initially might come off in a way I didn't intend, but you have to meet me halfway by assuming I'm not a total jerk. Writing isn't about winning or losing, it's about sharing ideas. And yes, there are better ways and worse ways to share ideas. A conversation around a dinner table is probably better than an essay ever will be - but you can still try to get there. You can either hear this fact and say "aha, I should try to be more clear in sharing my ideas" or you can say "that's fatalistic, and writing isn't a game." I can't fault you for choosing the latter, but I do ask that when I choose the former you remember that I do it just because I want to be understood.
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    Please accept my apologies. Lately it has felt like everyone around here is trying to win. I should not have assumed you were and I seem to have fixated on the wrong elements of your comment.
JohnLBevan 14y ago
Agreed. Aside from assisting in removing bias from the reader, working your way through to the conclusion allows it to remain a mystery to the reader, allowing them to enjoy being walked through the process of discovery, rather than just giving them an answer, then doing a "here's how we got there", which (in some cases) becomes less interesting once the answer is known. To respond to Fusiongyro's point that this is a narrow view I point out that generally in writing style should change with context. In some cases the author of the article is exactly right about summing things up in the first sentence, in others johnfn is. TLDR: Whether to use tldr depends on what experience you're looking to give your readers, what you're writing about, and who you're writing for.
- repsilat 14y ago
  You and the GP are actually in agreement with the thesis of TFA (though not the specific argument it's making). TL;DR is unnecessary for two reasons: 1. If you're writing a piece in which "the journey" isn't important, then you should put your conclusions up front like a good journalist. 2. If you're writing a considered, long-form piece in which readers' appreciation of your conclusions is path dependent then a TL;DR is obviously counterproductive - if it's necnessary for a reader to actually read the piece, it doesn't make sense to reward those who skip to the end or didn't comprehend what they read. TFA took point 1, you and GP took point 2. Nobody (except Charlesmigli) has given an argument that TL;DRs have a place.
  - JohnLBevan 14y ago
    I see the tl;dr as a failover to the full story. Those who have time you walk through the journey of discovery. Those who don't you'd rather they could at least see a summary of your conclusion than leave with nothing.

by johnfn 14y ago

Charlesmigli 14y ago

Yes I agree. tl;drs versions are especially useful for high quality content like the articles on http://longreads.com http://longreads.com.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

fusiongyro 14y ago

That's both a very narrow, unhealthy view of writing and a pretty fatalistic attitude towards your readers. I don't like TL;DR any more than the author of the article, but I don't think having an abstract or brief synopsis decreases the likelihood of you "winning" the essay—or if it did, that this alone would constitute a good reason not to use them.

johnfn 14y ago
I think you misunderstood my comment. I wasn't speaking just about having a TL;DR or not but instead more about the difference between long essays and short passages. Characterizing my opinion of writing as either something you 'win' or 'lose' is itself narrow (and frankly, almost insulting). I have to feel that you coming off this way is a byproduct of the Internet. I'm not trying to chastise you here. I understand that what I wrote initially might come off in a way I didn't intend, but you have to meet me halfway by assuming I'm not a total jerk. Writing isn't about winning or losing, it's about sharing ideas. And yes, there are better ways and worse ways to share ideas. A conversation around a dinner table is probably better than an essay ever will be - but you can still try to get there. You can either hear this fact and say "aha, I should try to be more clear in sharing my ideas" or you can say "that's fatalistic, and writing isn't a game." I can't fault you for choosing the latter, but I do ask that when I choose the former you remember that I do it just because I want to be understood.
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  Please accept my apologies. Lately it has felt like everyone around here is trying to win. I should not have assumed you were and I seem to have fixated on the wrong elements of your comment.

JohnLBevan 14y ago

Agreed. Aside from assisting in removing bias from the reader, working your way through to the conclusion allows it to remain a mystery to the reader, allowing them to enjoy being walked through the process of discovery, rather than just giving them an answer, then doing a "here's how we got there", which (in some cases) becomes less interesting once the answer is known. To respond to Fusiongyro's point that this is a narrow view I point out that generally in writing style should change with context. In some cases the author of the article is exactly right about summing things up in the first sentence, in others johnfn is. TLDR: Whether to use tldr depends on what experience you're looking to give your readers, what you're writing about, and who you're writing for.

repsilat 14y ago
You and the GP are actually in agreement with the thesis of TFA (though not the specific argument it's making). TL;DR is unnecessary for two reasons: 1. If you're writing a piece in which "the journey" isn't important, then you should put your conclusions up front like a good journalist. 2. If you're writing a considered, long-form piece in which readers' appreciation of your conclusions is path dependent then a TL;DR is obviously counterproductive - if it's necnessary for a reader to actually read the piece, it doesn't make sense to reward those who skip to the end or didn't comprehend what they read. TFA took point 1, you and GP took point 2. Nobody (except Charlesmigli) has given an argument that TL;DRs have a place.
- JohnLBevan 14y ago
  I see the tl;dr as a failover to the full story. Those who have time you walk through the journey of discovery. Those who don't you'd rather they could at least see a summary of your conclusion than leave with nothing.