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The witch hunt angle has been bothering me a lot, and should be ample evidence that the people of Hacker News are no better than the reactionaries of Reddit or

The witch hunt angle has been bothering me a lot, and should be ample evidence that the people of Hacker News are no better than the reactionaries of Reddit or even 4chan. No sooner had the man's death hit the news that people started foaming at the mouth, writing long manifestos and diatribes, and calling for the head of everyone and anyone related to the prosecution. We are better than this. Actually, evidently, no we're not. We will take a single piece of news, and then fly off the handle, careening into supposition after rumor, and proceed to label people whose actions (or inactions) are far from certain, with the most heinous crimes our society knows - up to and including murder. We will take the news of one man's death and twist that into character attacks against people and groups we don't know, and make blanket statements galore: whether it's about the staff of MIT, all lawyers, all prosecutors, all investigators, all Federal employees, etc, ad nauseum. We will write posts filled with hyperbole after hyperbole, followed by insinuations, emotion-appealing analogies, and mindless rhetoric. So no, we are evidently just as knee-jerky reactionary as every other stupid online community. But we should be better than this.

asdfologist 14y ago
Say that to Aaron's family, who themselves blamed MIT and the prosecutors.
- Kylekramer 14y ago
  Families aren't unerring. Taking a person's family reaction as the ideal course of action post tragedy is a hornet's nest of problems.
kennywinker 14y ago
Better in what way? Less caring? More apathetic? I think we should have been better than this too... I think we should have been up in arms while Aaron was still alive. It was wrong then too, but easier to dismiss because it was someone else' fight.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  I agree, and it's why I find the witch hunt angle all the more troubling. Half of the people making angry diatribes right now on HN couldn't write a cogent paragraph about the failings of the American prosecutorial system, two days ago. And now they're busy tripping over each other with hyperbole-filled condemnations, and casting all members of the justice system as something subhuman. And in all of this noise we've only heard a few whimpers about the systemic failings that have brought about this tragedy, with vastly more voices calling for specific heads to roll. This is a classic pitchfork-wielding mob - less concerned with the future prevention of the injustice, and much more concerned with blame and vengeance. There is justice, and there is mob justice. HN has seen vastly more of the latter than the former in the past couple of days.
  - detst 14y ago
    > And in all of this noise we've only heard a few whimpers about the systemic failings that have brought about this tragedy, with vastly more voices calling for specific heads to roll. "Calling for specific heads" is a perfectly reasonable response to systemic failings. The system is fucked up and it's not even as if they can say "I was just doing my job". There is a large amount of discretion involved here. Even hypothetically conceding that some crime was committed and that this is just how the game is played to get people to plea doesn't justify ruining someone's life. Hold these specific people accountable and the message will be sent that these tactics are no longer accepted. It's just a band-aid but it's a start.
  - hamai 14y ago
    >There is justice, and there is mob justice. Which one is this? http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/black-whitey-how-the-feds-disable-criminal-defense/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/bla... Coincidentally the Whitey's case was by the same Carmen Ortiz, according to news sources.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    Did you read the recent discussion of article Black and Whitey? It's fun to be a contrarian, but try to find a sensible angle.
tome 14y ago
The sanest comment I've read regarding HN's reaction to this tragic story.
graue 14y ago
Anger is one stage many will go through in the process of coping with such an immense loss. It may be irrational, but it's only human. Humans aren't logical all the time. Furthermore, on HN at least, your "we" seems to actually be "a vocal minority of us", and by no means represents the pervasive sentiment. I think overall, we're angry at the machine, not the cogs in it. Certainly I am. In time those of us who mourn Aaron's passing will hopefully channel that anger into productive change. But until then, judging a community's reasonableness in the wake of a tragedy like this is setting a really, really high bar. Emotions. We've all got 'em, even hackers.
bambax 14y ago
Thanks for saying that.
olefoo 14y ago
That is a fine display of histrionics; but, the specifics of this case DO merit removing Ms. Ortiz and her assistant Mr. Heymann from office. Those of us who were following the case before Aaron's tragic episode knew that a great injustice was being perpetrated, but that it could not realistically be undone until after the damage had happened. Ms. Ortiz and Mr. Heymann should be held accountable for their decision to use charges far out of proportion to the damage done. And the correct way to hold them accountable is to remove them from an office they have proven themselves incapable of using appropriately. They do not deserve to have the full power of the law behind their petty vendettas. A Federal District Attorney in this country, at this time, has almost no checks on her power to prosecute. Petitioning the Whitehouse and the congress to remove one who has clearly overstepped the bounds of propriety is the only recourse we have. You should sign the petition, because it is the only way that Ms. Ortiz's power will even be questioned officially. Like most online petitions it will accomplish little without a sustained campaign from many directions.
- doktrin 14y ago
  I intended to up vote this (downvoted by accident as I am reading on my phone)
  - tzs 14y ago
    I up voted it to cancel your accidental down vote. I have never understood why HN does not let people change a mistaken vote.
    - ISL 14y ago
      Amen. Especially in a world with small touchscreens.
    - danielweber 14y ago
      Stackoverflow comes close to the same thing, with big warnings if you change your vote that you can only do it once. Maybe it's to prevent us from saying "I liked your comment" and then realizing tomorrow you said something offensive and going back and downvoting all your comments out of spite. I guess. Doesn't seem worth it, but it's the best I got.
temphn 14y ago
True or False: a federal prosecutor decided to charge Aaron Swartz with 35 years in federal prison for downloading pdfs from JSTOR [1]. True or False: Lawrence Lessig, Alex Stamos (an expert witness) and Swartz's own family said that the overzealous and vastly disproportionate prosecution was the principal factor in his suicide. The real witch-hunt was led by Carmen Ortiz and Steve Heymann and ended in Swartz's death. Witches don't exist, and the evil hacker of their imagination did not exist. Your proposal to be "better than this" seems to mean remaining silent, averting our eyes, and pretending that this was some act of nature like a mudslide. As for whether we should have done something beforehand: how could we have? Lessig himself said that the government had effectively muzzled Swartz to prevent him from defending himself online or alerting others to the severity of his situation. There were specific people here to blame. If you believe the US Attorney's charges were merited, that they should not face discipline, that seeing a sitting US prosecutor forced to resign would not have the requisite "deterrent effect", or that we should all remain silent and accept this -- just say so. Otherwise your critique is contentless, and a recommendation for Aaron's death to be meaningless. [1] http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-government-ups-felony-count-jstoraaron-swartz-case-four-to-thirteen.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-gov... EDIT: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5052033 And a court would have no choice but to find him guilty, as that is the purpose of the judiciary. A court cannot let someone walk after a crime simply because the law itself is unjust. OK, pretty clear where you stand. You are not really arguing against "overreaction", you actually think he should have been found guilty. What you are not taking into account is the direct personal responsibility of the prosecutor for the disproportionality of the charges.
- rprasad 14y ago
  I believe this is a per se example of what potatolicious was referring to. Lessig, Stamos, and Swartz are what is legally known as "biased" toward Aaron's case. Naturally, MIT, JSTOR, and various persons in the federal government have differing opinions. Aaron wasn't the target of a witch hunt; that would imply that he wasn't guilty of anything. He was--he admits to what he did. His defense was an MLK/Ghandi defense (i.e., civil disobedience). Lessig himself said that the government had effectively muzzled Swartz to prevent him from defending himself online or alerting others to the severity of his situation. Which clearly isn't true, since HN, reddit, and the interweb in general has been discussing this case nearly non-stop since the charges were dropped. that seeing a sitting US prosecutor forced to resign would not have the requisite "deterrent effect" This is a fantasy, both in the likelihood of occuring and its desired effect. People outside of the tech world simply don't think that way.
hamai 14y ago
Indeed there's a lot of emotions involved, but that's because people know Aaron well and what he did wasn't worth 35 year jail intimidation. I think you inverted the meaning of reactionaries, this is not a conservative movement, it's actually about changing the state of justice. Hate to repeat myself but this information is important: Aaron's "crime" - http://unhandled.com/2013/01/12/the-truth-about-aaron-swartzs-crime/ http://unhandled.com/2013/01/12/the-truth-about-aaron-swartz... Strategies to disable legal defense - http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/black-whitey-how-the-feds-disable-criminal-defense/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/bla... Whithey's case seems to be related the same attorney(Ortiz)
3825 14y ago
>But we should be better than this. I am ashamed to be a part of the same community that you claim to embody. >calling for the head of everyone and anyone related to the prosecution Not everyone. I think Lawrence clearly named ONE name. An appointed office. Not an elected representative. Her superior can politely ask her if she'd like to step down. This is not supposed to be the most difficult part, people.

asdfologist 14y ago

Say that to Aaron's family, who themselves blamed MIT and the prosecutors.

Kylekramer 14y ago
Families aren't unerring. Taking a person's family reaction as the ideal course of action post tragedy is a hornet's nest of problems.

kennywinker 14y ago

Better in what way? Less caring? More apathetic? I think we should have been better than this too... I think we should have been up in arms while Aaron was still alive. It was wrong then too, but easier to dismiss because it was someone else' fight.

potatolicious 14y ago
I agree, and it's why I find the witch hunt angle all the more troubling. Half of the people making angry diatribes right now on HN couldn't write a cogent paragraph about the failings of the American prosecutorial system, two days ago. And now they're busy tripping over each other with hyperbole-filled condemnations, and casting all members of the justice system as something subhuman. And in all of this noise we've only heard a few whimpers about the systemic failings that have brought about this tragedy, with vastly more voices calling for specific heads to roll. This is a classic pitchfork-wielding mob - less concerned with the future prevention of the injustice, and much more concerned with blame and vengeance. There is justice, and there is mob justice. HN has seen vastly more of the latter than the former in the past couple of days.
- detst 14y ago
  > And in all of this noise we've only heard a few whimpers about the systemic failings that have brought about this tragedy, with vastly more voices calling for specific heads to roll. "Calling for specific heads" is a perfectly reasonable response to systemic failings. The system is fucked up and it's not even as if they can say "I was just doing my job". There is a large amount of discretion involved here. Even hypothetically conceding that some crime was committed and that this is just how the game is played to get people to plea doesn't justify ruining someone's life. Hold these specific people accountable and the message will be sent that these tactics are no longer accepted. It's just a band-aid but it's a start.
- hamai 14y ago
  >There is justice, and there is mob justice. Which one is this? http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/black-whitey-how-the-feds-disable-criminal-defense/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/bla... Coincidentally the Whitey's case was by the same Carmen Ortiz, according to news sources.
- Evbn 14y ago
  Did you read the recent discussion of article Black and Whitey? It's fun to be a contrarian, but try to find a sensible angle.

tome 14y ago

The sanest comment I've read regarding HN's reaction to this tragic story.

graue 14y ago

Anger is one stage many will go through in the process of coping with such an immense loss. It may be irrational, but it's only human. Humans aren't logical all the time. Furthermore, on HN at least, your "we" seems to actually be "a vocal minority of us", and by no means represents the pervasive sentiment. I think overall, we're angry at the machine, not the cogs in it. Certainly I am. In time those of us who mourn Aaron's passing will hopefully channel that anger into productive change. But until then, judging a community's reasonableness in the wake of a tragedy like this is setting a really, really high bar. Emotions. We've all got 'em, even hackers.

bambax 14y ago

Thanks for saying that.

olefoo 14y ago

That is a fine display of histrionics; but, the specifics of this case DO merit removing Ms. Ortiz and her assistant Mr. Heymann from office. Those of us who were following the case before Aaron's tragic episode knew that a great injustice was being perpetrated, but that it could not realistically be undone until after the damage had happened. Ms. Ortiz and Mr. Heymann should be held accountable for their decision to use charges far out of proportion to the damage done. And the correct way to hold them accountable is to remove them from an office they have proven themselves incapable of using appropriately. They do not deserve to have the full power of the law behind their petty vendettas. A Federal District Attorney in this country, at this time, has almost no checks on her power to prosecute. Petitioning the Whitehouse and the congress to remove one who has clearly overstepped the bounds of propriety is the only recourse we have. You should sign the petition, because it is the only way that Ms. Ortiz's power will even be questioned officially. Like most online petitions it will accomplish little without a sustained campaign from many directions.

doktrin 14y ago
I intended to up vote this (downvoted by accident as I am reading on my phone)
- tzs 14y ago
  I up voted it to cancel your accidental down vote. I have never understood why HN does not let people change a mistaken vote.
  - ISL 14y ago
    Amen. Especially in a world with small touchscreens.
  - danielweber 14y ago
    Stackoverflow comes close to the same thing, with big warnings if you change your vote that you can only do it once. Maybe it's to prevent us from saying "I liked your comment" and then realizing tomorrow you said something offensive and going back and downvoting all your comments out of spite. I guess. Doesn't seem worth it, but it's the best I got.

temphn 14y ago

True or False: a federal prosecutor decided to charge Aaron Swartz with 35 years in federal prison for downloading pdfs from JSTOR [1]. True or False: Lawrence Lessig, Alex Stamos (an expert witness) and Swartz's own family said that the overzealous and vastly disproportionate prosecution was the principal factor in his suicide. The real witch-hunt was led by Carmen Ortiz and Steve Heymann and ended in Swartz's death. Witches don't exist, and the evil hacker of their imagination did not exist. Your proposal to be "better than this" seems to mean remaining silent, averting our eyes, and pretending that this was some act of nature like a mudslide. As for whether we should have done something beforehand: how could we have? Lessig himself said that the government had effectively muzzled Swartz to prevent him from defending himself online or alerting others to the severity of his situation. There were specific people here to blame. If you believe the US Attorney's charges were merited, that they should not face discipline, that seeing a sitting US prosecutor forced to resign would not have the requisite "deterrent effect", or that we should all remain silent and accept this -- just say so. Otherwise your critique is contentless, and a recommendation for Aaron's death to be meaningless. [1] http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-government-ups-felony-count-jstoraaron-swartz-case-four-to-thirteen.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120917/17393320412/us-gov... EDIT: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5052033 And a court would have no choice but to find him guilty, as that is the purpose of the judiciary. A court cannot let someone walk after a crime simply because the law itself is unjust. OK, pretty clear where you stand. You are not really arguing against "overreaction", you actually think he should have been found guilty. What you are not taking into account is the direct personal responsibility of the prosecutor for the disproportionality of the charges.

rprasad 14y ago
I believe this is a per se example of what potatolicious was referring to. Lessig, Stamos, and Swartz are what is legally known as "biased" toward Aaron's case. Naturally, MIT, JSTOR, and various persons in the federal government have differing opinions. Aaron wasn't the target of a witch hunt; that would imply that he wasn't guilty of anything. He was--he admits to what he did. His defense was an MLK/Ghandi defense (i.e., civil disobedience). Lessig himself said that the government had effectively muzzled Swartz to prevent him from defending himself online or alerting others to the severity of his situation. Which clearly isn't true, since HN, reddit, and the interweb in general has been discussing this case nearly non-stop since the charges were dropped. that seeing a sitting US prosecutor forced to resign would not have the requisite "deterrent effect" This is a fantasy, both in the likelihood of occuring and its desired effect. People outside of the tech world simply don't think that way.

hamai 14y ago

Indeed there's a lot of emotions involved, but that's because people know Aaron well and what he did wasn't worth 35 year jail intimidation. I think you inverted the meaning of reactionaries, this is not a conservative movement, it's actually about changing the state of justice. Hate to repeat myself but this information is important: Aaron's "crime" - http://unhandled.com/2013/01/12/the-truth-about-aaron-swartzs-crime/ http://unhandled.com/2013/01/12/the-truth-about-aaron-swartz... Strategies to disable legal defense - http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/black-whitey-how-the-feds-disable-criminal-defense/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/harveysilverglate/2013/01/03/bla... Whithey's case seems to be related the same attorney(Ortiz)

3825 14y ago

>But we should be better than this. I am ashamed to be a part of the same community that you claim to embody. >calling for the head of everyone and anyone related to the prosecution Not everyone. I think Lawrence clearly named ONE name. An appointed office. Not an elected representative. Her superior can politely ask her if she'd like to step down. This is not supposed to be the most difficult part, people.