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Is it possible to have a rational discussion on suicide without it offending someone's own will to live? Is there a natural law that suicide breaches, is this

by buro9 14y ago

Is it possible to have a rational discussion on suicide without it offending someone's own will to live? Is there a natural law that suicide breaches, is this why it upsets and offends so many at the thought? I'm personally of the deep belief that suicide is an option. And it's also something I think of at times. I think of suicide when I'm up, when I'm down... but generally never when I have a struggle and something to fight for. I think of suicide semi-frequently and always have. I view suicide as an option because I don't believe in afterlife, or that life is a gift (from whom? we're supposed to be thankful how?)... life and personal existence is a bizarre improbable thing, we are here but nothing follows and nothing will remain of us in the grand scheme of things. When you know life is fundamentally irrelevant, that we are but a speck of dust... what's the difference between a span of 40 years and a span of 80 years? I like to think that life should be qualitatively lived, struggles endured in a constant hope of experiencing a high-quality of living. Is there anything so deeply flawed with viewing my life as being mine to do with as I please, and also acknowledging that if I come to some point that a remainder of my life would be lived in misery that I might choose to exercise a right over my life to end it on a qualitative high? I don't find that these arguments differ greatly from those in terminal illness (whom most would sympathise with), but like many things that are unseen (mental illness, emotional state, state of happiness or sadness)... the unseen seem to be accepted as being unreal, fixable, unacceptable. Yet there are times that suicide can almost be thought of as noble. When a lover dies and the lone lover pines so greatly and finds that they cannot continue to have any quality of life without the other person. I don't believe that I've ever been clinically depressed, and am a very optimistic and hopeful person. Yet my reasoning isn't offended or appalled when I see reports of suicide, and nor could I make a claim that I would never consider it. It is, for me, part of living... as death is for everyone... and as we ponder death beyond our control, I also ponder death within our control. I find it hard to comprehend the reaction of others to stories of suicide that seem to follow misconceptions about someone having to be depressed, or the time of year... I don't think suicide is the product of a person with a fault in some way, I find it to be a rational thing.

Pitarou 14y ago
In the West, the vast majority of people who kill themselves do so as a direct result of depression. Their perceptions distorted, and their decision-making skills are impaired. If you find this "hard to comprehend", then perhaps you should re-examine your assumptions.
- buro9 14y ago
  The vast majority being 75% ( http://www.csun.edu/~vmd53178/misconceptions.htm http://www.csun.edu/~vmd53178/misconceptions.htm ) Which still leaves a quarter of suicides by those not clinically depressed. Hence my argument that generalising depression as the cause of suicide without knowing the individuals involved is a gross generalisation that is in itself offensive to the 25% who are not depressed. I've known two people reasonably well who committed suicide. One was a family member, the other a good friend. Neither was clinically depressed, or even occasionally so. Both had attempted to have rational discussions on it in the many months and years before... hence my question: Why is it that we can't seem to have rational discussions on suicide?
  - Pitarou 14y ago
    If you think there is a rational case for suicide, fine, but I really wish you'd discuss it elsewhere. The purpose of my post was to nudge people who are affected by irrational thoughts of suicide out of that state of mind. Pro-suicide input (rational or not) is the last thing that such a person needs.
    - buro9 14y ago
      Organisations such as the Samaritans in the UK (which runs an emergency help line to support those feeling suicidal) explicitly do not denounce or avoid debate on suicide. I haven't got a pro-suicide position, I have a rational position that accepts suicide as an option. And in my life it's been an option I've considered at times. Yet, you would have people who have had suicidal thoughts think that they were irrational, and that they must adopt an anti-suicide position. The very best thing that anyone can do with those with suicidal thoughts is listen. Not judge, not prevent the debate... and my point now very strongly and bluntly made, is that people are fundamentally unwilling to listen, or have any real debate.
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by buro9 14y ago

Pitarou 14y ago

In the West, the vast majority of people who kill themselves do so as a direct result of depression. Their perceptions distorted, and their decision-making skills are impaired. If you find this "hard to comprehend", then perhaps you should re-examine your assumptions.

buro9 14y ago
The vast majority being 75% ( http://www.csun.edu/~vmd53178/misconceptions.htm http://www.csun.edu/~vmd53178/misconceptions.htm ) Which still leaves a quarter of suicides by those not clinically depressed. Hence my argument that generalising depression as the cause of suicide without knowing the individuals involved is a gross generalisation that is in itself offensive to the 25% who are not depressed. I've known two people reasonably well who committed suicide. One was a family member, the other a good friend. Neither was clinically depressed, or even occasionally so. Both had attempted to have rational discussions on it in the many months and years before... hence my question: Why is it that we can't seem to have rational discussions on suicide?
- Pitarou 14y ago
  If you think there is a rational case for suicide, fine, but I really wish you'd discuss it elsewhere. The purpose of my post was to nudge people who are affected by irrational thoughts of suicide out of that state of mind. Pro-suicide input (rational or not) is the last thing that such a person needs.
  - buro9 14y ago
    Organisations such as the Samaritans in the UK (which runs an emergency help line to support those feeling suicidal) explicitly do not denounce or avoid debate on suicide. I haven't got a pro-suicide position, I have a rational position that accepts suicide as an option. And in my life it's been an option I've considered at times. Yet, you would have people who have had suicidal thoughts think that they were irrational, and that they must adopt an anti-suicide position. The very best thing that anyone can do with those with suicidal thoughts is listen. Not judge, not prevent the debate... and my point now very strongly and bluntly made, is that people are fundamentally unwilling to listen, or have any real debate.

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