6 ms·

I'm glad it works for you, but I find it sad that atheism and life having no purpose depresses you. That life has no purpose effectively means that there is fre

by Tichy 14y ago

I'm glad it works for you, but I find it sad that atheism and life having no purpose depresses you. That life has no purpose effectively means that there is freedom. It is very scary, but we have to choose the purpose for ourselves. What we "lose" (it was never there actually) is the belief in an external, all-knowing guiding force that somehow makes everything we do ok. However, there are still guiding forces you can choose to follow. They are within us. Personally I think if there was such an external guiding force, it would make life meaningless.

verysoftoiltppr 14y ago
I find it sad that you find it sad. There is nothing sad about depression caused by the acknowledgement of purposefulness. Lack of purpose is sad.
- Tichy 14y ago
  I agree if you talk about a subjective feeling of purpose. It's depressing to feel you can not achieve what you aspire to. I don't agree that an external power that prescribes some random notion of purpose is necessary.
Xcelerate 14y ago
Don't know why you were downvoted, so I voted you back up. It would be nice if HN users used the downvote button to indicate useless or offensive posts rather than something they personally disagree with (particularly on topics with a wide spectrum of opinions where one's opinion is closely tied to his identity).
obstacle1 14y ago
>That life has no purpose effectively means that there is freedom. It is very scary, but we have to choose the purpose for ourselves. I think that this is precisely what drives many people to insanity. We are not brought up to think that we are free. When we experience freedom (either intellectually or actually) we become overwhelmed. We quite literally don't know how to handle it. We (in most of the West) are taught from birth that we must always subject ourselves to some authority. In the beginning, there was the parent. If we didn't please him/her, we did not survive. Then there was the teacher. If we did not follow his/her instructions, we were punished (regardless of whether or not our undirected pursuits were fruitful). Then there was our boss. If we did not execute tasks handed down from said boss in precisely the proper way, we were terminated. The fact that most of our (this generation's) parents were not entrepreneurial means that entrepreneurship was generally looked down upon. The "get a job, obey your boss" gene was passed down to the vast majority of us. This all not even considering religious commitments (pastors, imams, rabbis, etc.). Or Government Officials, who we must subject ourselves to if we need social services of any kind. Then there is The Community, who indirectly pressure us to live as they do at risk of shaming and/or shunning. Then there is ... etc. All of this is an incredible burden to bear for anyone. That is why most people don't explore this line of thought. Religion, workaholism, or familycentrism are all a whole lot easier than actually facing the void. If you've legitimately seen darkness and have decided to let it empower you, damn -- I commend ya. Most of us can't do it. Even Nietzsche -- who was pretty much the first to verbalize our secular freedom -- lost control in the end.
- ZenoArrow 14y ago
  Life is what you make it. That doesn't mean it is a void, it means you have influence over how it turns out. If you find it scary, then I'd suggest you might want to look around you... there is a world that exists outside your head. Think about this conversation we're having, we've probably never met, yet I am more than just a thought that exists inside your head, I am a sentient being, and I am different to you yet I am your equal. Whilst I cannot tell you what life means to you, I can reassure you there is more to life than nothingness. As Descartes put it "I think, therefore I am"... to me, in a funny way this is a precursor to duck typing, it doesn't really matter the form that life takes, if it resembles life then it is life.
  - obstacle1 14y ago
    >Life is what you make it. That doesn't mean it is a void Life means nothing. There is no moral standard, universal ideal, or God to live up to or for. "Making" your life is painting a picture on a blank canvas. That is filling a void, and your saying "get out of your head!" is nothing more than your way of filling said void. Regarding our conversation, yes, it is neat. However that it is neat doesn't magically infuse life with meaning. We are wherever we are, conversing, and life is still meaningless. I am still gazing into the void. And the void is still gazing back at you. Regarding the cogito. That life exists in many forms does not give life meaning. The likeliest case is that life means absolutely nothing and that all there is is nothingness. We have no purpose here other than what we've invented for ourselves, and even then we have different conceptions of what that is. "I think therefore I am," and what next? That is the void.
    - ZenoArrow 14y ago
      Our wires are getting crossed here because of the differences in the use of the word 'void'. I'm saying the life we know is not devoid of other life, you are saying life is devoid of meaning. I think you accept that life exists, so the question moves onto what meaning does life carry... There's an important point to consider here, and I hope you don't take offence... perhaps the reason you believe life is devoid of meaning is because you're asking the wrong question... Let's consider the question... What is the meaning of a tree? A person asking such a question has set out to find a succinct answer that fits with their understanding of what constitutes meaning. If they cannot find an answer, their conclusion is that trees are meaningless. However, this is us projecting our desires onto the tree, what we're really asking is 'what message do you have for me?', and message implies there was a sender of the message, so for those that do not believe in a higher power there is no sender of a message, so really you could predict the answer before its even asked (based on who is answering it). Furthermore, it's important to understand just because a question is simple to ask, does not mean the answer has to be simple, or even mean there is an answer at all. Let's say I asked you... What do words mean? The question was posed in 4 words, and is a valid English sentence. However, when you think of answers, you see that the question is nonsensical, words don't have one meaning, each word has its own meaning. The same is true of the question... What does life mean? The English used to pose the question is valid, but the combination of words rules out any single answer. Furthermore, there's a difference being meaningless and worthless. Going back to the tree example, if a tree was worthless the environment it existed in would not be changed depending on whether it existed. However, we can see that the tree has an influence on the world around it. I've stopped the tree example there, because there's one more point that must be addressed otherwise this conversation is unlikely to progress. Whilst the 'meaning of life' question does not make sense, the reasons for asking it do, and that is to work out what we should do with our life. Whilst I still maintain that 'life is what you make it', I think it'll be helpful to share a little of my personal story and philosophy. In 2012, I tried out a religious retreat, and whilst the people there were well intentioned, I reacted badly to it, which resulted in quite a bit of soul searching. Something that helped me balance myself what the teachings of Socrates, in particular that he was the wisest man because he knew one thing... that he knew nothing. This helped me change my perspective on life... instead of reaching up for answers about higher purpose (that I could never claim knowledge of), I instead chose to embrace the life I can experience now. I find value in enjoying life and in being a positive influence in the life of others. Seems like a perfectly fine approach to me, and you see I didn't need to find a universal answer to the 'meaning of life' question to choose this path either, your path is up to you. As for universal ideal, perhaps the Golden Rule will suffice? Thank you for reading this longish post.
zoba 14y ago
Its not surprising that it depresses me. You say "choose the purpose for ourselves" but how can one be absolutely confident they are making the right choice? If they are not absolutely confident -- then why would they let the guiding principles of their entire life be something they're unsure of? Should they simply do what makes them happiest? No, most people agree that doing what makes you happiest is not an answer for everyone. Some people like to murder, and as a society we agree thats not acceptable. Everyone would feel good taking heroin, but that wouldn't be good either. Also, simply striving for happiness is messy - when do you go for immediate gratification and when do you strive for long term happiness? Should people's purpose be helping others? Maybe, but there are problems with that too. Mostly, when do you help others and when do you help yourself? Perhaps if you helped yourself just a little more you could help a lot more people. But if you help yourself you stop helping others...so the advice of "helping others" really isn't a complete thought/advice. (Though, I do agree I like to help others.) Honestly I don't know how anyone can place any value on anything without a purpose for themselves, and while many people have assigned purposes for themselves, I'm curious how they came to the conclusion that that purpose was the right one. So many people base decisions on what others do, or what feels good...and not many people sit down and think through the logic of it, I think. So, back to my point about not being surprised that it depressed me: without valuing anything, nothing feels good. Art is seen, understood, and neither liked nor disliked. Comedy is seen, comprehended, but not fulfilling. Physical rushes are felt, experienced, and let pass. There is nothing to base happiness on because nothing matters. That is, until a purpose is understood. Its the most important thing of all and so any time you take a step that supports it, you can give yourself a pat on the back for doing whats right. The purpose I understand is to discover a purpose. Every time you exercise so that you can think more clearly and live longer, every time you build something or accumulate wealth so that you can better yourself and put yourself in a better position to make life a little longer and promote research a little more, or even every time you relax you can actually relax because you know all these things will help you in the long run. Its a deep confidence in knowing that I'm doing as best I can because nobody knows the purpose, if there even is one, and so the only way we can have piece of mind that we haven't wasted the little time we have here is by doing as best we can to figure it out.
- Tichy 14y ago

by Tichy 14y ago

verysoftoiltppr 14y ago

I find it sad that you find it sad. There is nothing sad about depression caused by the acknowledgement of purposefulness. Lack of purpose is sad.

Tichy 14y ago
I agree if you talk about a subjective feeling of purpose. It's depressing to feel you can not achieve what you aspire to. I don't agree that an external power that prescribes some random notion of purpose is necessary.

Xcelerate 14y ago

Don't know why you were downvoted, so I voted you back up. It would be nice if HN users used the downvote button to indicate useless or offensive posts rather than something they personally disagree with (particularly on topics with a wide spectrum of opinions where one's opinion is closely tied to his identity).

obstacle1 14y ago

>That life has no purpose effectively means that there is freedom. It is very scary, but we have to choose the purpose for ourselves. I think that this is precisely what drives many people to insanity. We are not brought up to think that we are free. When we experience freedom (either intellectually or actually) we become overwhelmed. We quite literally don't know how to handle it. We (in most of the West) are taught from birth that we must always subject ourselves to some authority. In the beginning, there was the parent. If we didn't please him/her, we did not survive. Then there was the teacher. If we did not follow his/her instructions, we were punished (regardless of whether or not our undirected pursuits were fruitful). Then there was our boss. If we did not execute tasks handed down from said boss in precisely the proper way, we were terminated. The fact that most of our (this generation's) parents were not entrepreneurial means that entrepreneurship was generally looked down upon. The "get a job, obey your boss" gene was passed down to the vast majority of us. This all not even considering religious commitments (pastors, imams, rabbis, etc.). Or Government Officials, who we must subject ourselves to if we need social services of any kind. Then there is The Community, who indirectly pressure us to live as they do at risk of shaming and/or shunning. Then there is ... etc. All of this is an incredible burden to bear for anyone. That is why most people don't explore this line of thought. Religion, workaholism, or familycentrism are all a whole lot easier than actually facing the void. If you've legitimately seen darkness and have decided to let it empower you, damn -- I commend ya. Most of us can't do it. Even Nietzsche -- who was pretty much the first to verbalize our secular freedom -- lost control in the end.

ZenoArrow 14y ago
Life is what you make it. That doesn't mean it is a void, it means you have influence over how it turns out. If you find it scary, then I'd suggest you might want to look around you... there is a world that exists outside your head. Think about this conversation we're having, we've probably never met, yet I am more than just a thought that exists inside your head, I am a sentient being, and I am different to you yet I am your equal. Whilst I cannot tell you what life means to you, I can reassure you there is more to life than nothingness. As Descartes put it "I think, therefore I am"... to me, in a funny way this is a precursor to duck typing, it doesn't really matter the form that life takes, if it resembles life then it is life.
- obstacle1 14y ago
  >Life is what you make it. That doesn't mean it is a void Life means nothing. There is no moral standard, universal ideal, or God to live up to or for. "Making" your life is painting a picture on a blank canvas. That is filling a void, and your saying "get out of your head!" is nothing more than your way of filling said void. Regarding our conversation, yes, it is neat. However that it is neat doesn't magically infuse life with meaning. We are wherever we are, conversing, and life is still meaningless. I am still gazing into the void. And the void is still gazing back at you. Regarding the cogito. That life exists in many forms does not give life meaning. The likeliest case is that life means absolutely nothing and that all there is is nothingness. We have no purpose here other than what we've invented for ourselves, and even then we have different conceptions of what that is. "I think therefore I am," and what next? That is the void.
  - ZenoArrow 14y ago
    Our wires are getting crossed here because of the differences in the use of the word 'void'. I'm saying the life we know is not devoid of other life, you are saying life is devoid of meaning. I think you accept that life exists, so the question moves onto what meaning does life carry... There's an important point to consider here, and I hope you don't take offence... perhaps the reason you believe life is devoid of meaning is because you're asking the wrong question... Let's consider the question... What is the meaning of a tree? A person asking such a question has set out to find a succinct answer that fits with their understanding of what constitutes meaning. If they cannot find an answer, their conclusion is that trees are meaningless. However, this is us projecting our desires onto the tree, what we're really asking is 'what message do you have for me?', and message implies there was a sender of the message, so for those that do not believe in a higher power there is no sender of a message, so really you could predict the answer before its even asked (based on who is answering it). Furthermore, it's important to understand just because a question is simple to ask, does not mean the answer has to be simple, or even mean there is an answer at all. Let's say I asked you... What do words mean? The question was posed in 4 words, and is a valid English sentence. However, when you think of answers, you see that the question is nonsensical, words don't have one meaning, each word has its own meaning. The same is true of the question... What does life mean? The English used to pose the question is valid, but the combination of words rules out any single answer. Furthermore, there's a difference being meaningless and worthless. Going back to the tree example, if a tree was worthless the environment it existed in would not be changed depending on whether it existed. However, we can see that the tree has an influence on the world around it. I've stopped the tree example there, because there's one more point that must be addressed otherwise this conversation is unlikely to progress. Whilst the 'meaning of life' question does not make sense, the reasons for asking it do, and that is to work out what we should do with our life. Whilst I still maintain that 'life is what you make it', I think it'll be helpful to share a little of my personal story and philosophy. In 2012, I tried out a religious retreat, and whilst the people there were well intentioned, I reacted badly to it, which resulted in quite a bit of soul searching. Something that helped me balance myself what the teachings of Socrates, in particular that he was the wisest man because he knew one thing... that he knew nothing. This helped me change my perspective on life... instead of reaching up for answers about higher purpose (that I could never claim knowledge of), I instead chose to embrace the life I can experience now. I find value in enjoying life and in being a positive influence in the life of others. Seems like a perfectly fine approach to me, and you see I didn't need to find a universal answer to the 'meaning of life' question to choose this path either, your path is up to you. As for universal ideal, perhaps the Golden Rule will suffice? Thank you for reading this longish post.

zoba 14y ago

Its not surprising that it depresses me. You say "choose the purpose for ourselves" but how can one be absolutely confident they are making the right choice? If they are not absolutely confident -- then why would they let the guiding principles of their entire life be something they're unsure of? Should they simply do what makes them happiest? No, most people agree that doing what makes you happiest is not an answer for everyone. Some people like to murder, and as a society we agree thats not acceptable. Everyone would feel good taking heroin, but that wouldn't be good either. Also, simply striving for happiness is messy - when do you go for immediate gratification and when do you strive for long term happiness? Should people's purpose be helping others? Maybe, but there are problems with that too. Mostly, when do you help others and when do you help yourself? Perhaps if you helped yourself just a little more you could help a lot more people. But if you help yourself you stop helping others...so the advice of "helping others" really isn't a complete thought/advice. (Though, I do agree I like to help others.) Honestly I don't know how anyone can place any value on anything without a purpose for themselves, and while many people have assigned purposes for themselves, I'm curious how they came to the conclusion that that purpose was the right one. So many people base decisions on what others do, or what feels good...and not many people sit down and think through the logic of it, I think. So, back to my point about not being surprised that it depressed me: without valuing anything, nothing feels good. Art is seen, understood, and neither liked nor disliked. Comedy is seen, comprehended, but not fulfilling. Physical rushes are felt, experienced, and let pass. There is nothing to base happiness on because nothing matters. That is, until a purpose is understood. Its the most important thing of all and so any time you take a step that supports it, you can give yourself a pat on the back for doing whats right. The purpose I understand is to discover a purpose. Every time you exercise so that you can think more clearly and live longer, every time you build something or accumulate wealth so that you can better yourself and put yourself in a better position to make life a little longer and promote research a little more, or even every time you relax you can actually relax because you know all these things will help you in the long run. Its a deep confidence in knowing that I'm doing as best I can because nobody knows the purpose, if there even is one, and so the only way we can have piece of mind that we haven't wasted the little time we have here is by doing as best we can to figure it out.

Tichy 14y ago