4 ms·

Perfectly possible to think about it but never act. I don't think there's been a day in my life in which I haven't contemplated the ramifications of offing myse

by madaxe 14y ago

Perfectly possible to think about it but never act. I don't think there's been a day in my life in which I haven't contemplated the ramifications of offing myself. Each and every time, I reach the same conclusion - it would be pointless. Null isn't a value, so I'd rather strive for happiness, even if my mood usually lurks around -1.

jacques_chester 14y ago
I don't mean to seem rude, but please, seek help. This doesn't sound like a healthy way to think and feel.
- jspthrowaway2 14y ago
  He has a point, though. It's pretty conservative to say "get help" for every thought about suicide. I think there's a difference between thinking about doing it or, say, wondering what death is like or whether you'd have the stones to go through with it. Honestly, I wonder what death is like a lot. That being said, I tend to agree with you to be more conservative, but I've had similar thoughts as the guy you're replying to and know without a doubt that I'd never kill myself. Of course, there's probably a psychological argument that me knowing that is up for debate. (Don't take this as displeasure with your efforts in this thread: thank you.)
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    I drive the conservative line because suicidal ideation is a symptom of depression and depression is a good predictor of suicide (and bloody unpleasant in itself). People in a normal mood just don't think about suicide. It's a reliable signal that something is wrong. And given how available help is, the smart thing to do is seek help.
    - jspthrowaway2 14y ago
      Fair enough. Thank you again.
    - Zaknafein88 14y ago
      I've engaged in suicidal ideation for many years. I'm not at risk of suicide, but if I thought that there was help available I would certainly seek it out. My question is: what are the forms of help that are available? I know of A) therapy and B) medication. I've spoken to 5 therapist for a couple sessions each, and my impression was that they are just normal people who you can talk to. They're not people who have answers, nor do they conduct their sessions with an overarching strategic plan. Rather, they're just people who you can talk to, and they will try their best to listen, even if they don't necessarily understand what you say. I know a lot of people benefit from this, but when I tried option A I didn't get anything out of it. In my case, my mental suffering derives from loneliness. I follow John Cacioppo's work on the subject, and he claims that loneliness is a biological signal (just like hunger) that requires a response. I believe in his explanation, and so to me applying medication to ease loneliness would be similar to giving someone a pill to end their feeling of being hungry. To me that's not really a solution: in the case of hunger, food is the solution, and in the case of loneliness, connection is the solution. Neither forms of help seem to me like they will help in my particular case. However when you say there's easy help available, you sound very confident. What am I missing?
  - droithomme 14y ago
    I was curious if some of those claims are true, especially since angst, existential despair and melancholy have been part of the human condition and described in one form or another by philosophers and others for thousands of years. I found this: http://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au/Suicide-Myths.html http://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au/Suicide-Myths.html > Myth: All suicidal people are mentally ill. 'Normal' people do not think about suicide. > Fact: Thoughts of suicide are not uncommon and can occur for anyone. People who see suicide as an option are in emotional pain and may be desperately unhappy. Although mental illnesses such as depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia may be associated with suicidal thinking and behaviour, not everyone who contemplates suicide is living with mental illness. They don't cite their sources, though it seems to be an australian national suicide prevention site so presumably their claims are not just made up.
    - jacques_chester 14y ago
      I agree, but they're putting the same facts in a different light. This question is really about the stigma of suicidal ideation ("Oh no, what if I'm a crazy person?"), rather than the fact that suicidal ideation is a serious symptom that should trigger reaching out for help.
- madaxe 14y ago
  I value my freedom and clarity of mind far more than I do some subjective "happiness", induced by drugs or lengthy stays in facilities, as is the normal treatment for depressive disorders in the UK. The system is not there to help, it's a kafkaesque self-sustaining bureaucracy. I do agree that suicidal thoughts aren't altogether healthy, but I'd also argue that blithely wandering through life without the merest shred of existential doubt is equally unhealthy.
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    Ah yes, I remember this. I thought the way you do. I don't need the pills. Depression has taught me deep this and profound that. Well let me tell you something. It's bullshit. That there might be a difference between 'objective' and 'subjective' happiness is triply-silly Cartesian dualist bullshit. You are absolutely embedded in the world, your happiness is not an abstract value that floats around on its own. And you won't be institutionalised for presenting with depression. The Kafkaesque bureaucracy was dismantled decades ago. Ultimately, I can't help you. In fact, by arguing, I cause you to harden your position. I'm hurting you. There is no more fuss in getting help for your brain acting up than getting help for having a dysfunctional pancreas or high blood pressure. The only difference is that the symptoms are the sensors, that's all. Let's agree to stop here.
    - corporalagumbo 14y ago
      Okay, now you are just embarrassing yourself.
      - marvin 14y ago
        That's a very mean thing to say and not at all appropriate in this thread.
    - madaxe 14y ago
      As odd as it sounds, I'm happy with the status quo. Frequently miserable, but content with that misery, as I've learned to use it productively. My madness is both my undoing, and my doing. I would not have quit a highly paid job to strike out on my own and grow a successful business, were I not terminally malcontent. I would not strive as I do to improve both my lot and that of others, were it not for the fact that I always have a gnawing sense of "this could be better". Either way, don't worry for my sake - while I may ideate suicide, I also ideate being an old man with crazy eyebrows. I don't think I'd class myself as clinically depressed, rather overly empathic and terminally frustrated at the human condition. Glad you found the help you needed, and that it works for you.
- PoliticsJunkie 14y ago
  stop it.

by madaxe 14y ago

jacques_chester 14y ago

I don't mean to seem rude, but please, seek help. This doesn't sound like a healthy way to think and feel.

jspthrowaway2 14y ago
He has a point, though. It's pretty conservative to say "get help" for every thought about suicide. I think there's a difference between thinking about doing it or, say, wondering what death is like or whether you'd have the stones to go through with it. Honestly, I wonder what death is like a lot. That being said, I tend to agree with you to be more conservative, but I've had similar thoughts as the guy you're replying to and know without a doubt that I'd never kill myself. Of course, there's probably a psychological argument that me knowing that is up for debate. (Don't take this as displeasure with your efforts in this thread: thank you.)
- jacques_chester 14y ago
  I drive the conservative line because suicidal ideation is a symptom of depression and depression is a good predictor of suicide (and bloody unpleasant in itself). People in a normal mood just don't think about suicide. It's a reliable signal that something is wrong. And given how available help is, the smart thing to do is seek help.
  - jspthrowaway2 14y ago
    Fair enough. Thank you again.
  - Zaknafein88 14y ago
    I've engaged in suicidal ideation for many years. I'm not at risk of suicide, but if I thought that there was help available I would certainly seek it out. My question is: what are the forms of help that are available? I know of A) therapy and B) medication. I've spoken to 5 therapist for a couple sessions each, and my impression was that they are just normal people who you can talk to. They're not people who have answers, nor do they conduct their sessions with an overarching strategic plan. Rather, they're just people who you can talk to, and they will try their best to listen, even if they don't necessarily understand what you say. I know a lot of people benefit from this, but when I tried option A I didn't get anything out of it. In my case, my mental suffering derives from loneliness. I follow John Cacioppo's work on the subject, and he claims that loneliness is a biological signal (just like hunger) that requires a response. I believe in his explanation, and so to me applying medication to ease loneliness would be similar to giving someone a pill to end their feeling of being hungry. To me that's not really a solution: in the case of hunger, food is the solution, and in the case of loneliness, connection is the solution. Neither forms of help seem to me like they will help in my particular case. However when you say there's easy help available, you sound very confident. What am I missing?
- droithomme 14y ago
  I was curious if some of those claims are true, especially since angst, existential despair and melancholy have been part of the human condition and described in one form or another by philosophers and others for thousands of years. I found this: http://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au/Suicide-Myths.html http://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au/Suicide-Myths.html > Myth: All suicidal people are mentally ill. 'Normal' people do not think about suicide. > Fact: Thoughts of suicide are not uncommon and can occur for anyone. People who see suicide as an option are in emotional pain and may be desperately unhappy. Although mental illnesses such as depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia may be associated with suicidal thinking and behaviour, not everyone who contemplates suicide is living with mental illness. They don't cite their sources, though it seems to be an australian national suicide prevention site so presumably their claims are not just made up.
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    I agree, but they're putting the same facts in a different light. This question is really about the stigma of suicidal ideation ("Oh no, what if I'm a crazy person?"), rather than the fact that suicidal ideation is a serious symptom that should trigger reaching out for help.
madaxe 14y ago
I value my freedom and clarity of mind far more than I do some subjective "happiness", induced by drugs or lengthy stays in facilities, as is the normal treatment for depressive disorders in the UK. The system is not there to help, it's a kafkaesque self-sustaining bureaucracy. I do agree that suicidal thoughts aren't altogether healthy, but I'd also argue that blithely wandering through life without the merest shred of existential doubt is equally unhealthy.
- jacques_chester 14y ago
  Ah yes, I remember this. I thought the way you do. I don't need the pills. Depression has taught me deep this and profound that. Well let me tell you something. It's bullshit. That there might be a difference between 'objective' and 'subjective' happiness is triply-silly Cartesian dualist bullshit. You are absolutely embedded in the world, your happiness is not an abstract value that floats around on its own. And you won't be institutionalised for presenting with depression. The Kafkaesque bureaucracy was dismantled decades ago. Ultimately, I can't help you. In fact, by arguing, I cause you to harden your position. I'm hurting you. There is no more fuss in getting help for your brain acting up than getting help for having a dysfunctional pancreas or high blood pressure. The only difference is that the symptoms are the sensors, that's all. Let's agree to stop here.
  - corporalagumbo 14y ago
    Okay, now you are just embarrassing yourself.
    - marvin 14y ago
      That's a very mean thing to say and not at all appropriate in this thread.
  - madaxe 14y ago
    As odd as it sounds, I'm happy with the status quo. Frequently miserable, but content with that misery, as I've learned to use it productively. My madness is both my undoing, and my doing. I would not have quit a highly paid job to strike out on my own and grow a successful business, were I not terminally malcontent. I would not strive as I do to improve both my lot and that of others, were it not for the fact that I always have a gnawing sense of "this could be better". Either way, don't worry for my sake - while I may ideate suicide, I also ideate being an old man with crazy eyebrows. I don't think I'd class myself as clinically depressed, rather overly empathic and terminally frustrated at the human condition. Glad you found the help you needed, and that it works for you.
PoliticsJunkie 14y ago
stop it.