4 ms·

It's worth noting that this is a tiny, tiny amount of money by US standards. A couple billion USD is not a big deal (financially or militarily, other than as a

by veidr 14y ago

It's worth noting that this is a tiny, tiny amount of money by US standards. A couple billion USD is not a big deal (financially or militarily, other than as a signal). Still, as a Japanese resident, I am happy with this use of my tax money. With the Cold War with China already well underway, I think Japan needs a much stronger military than at any time since losing WWII. Partly because of the economic ascendance of China (which a lot of people these days somehow forget is a brutal, repressive, totalitarian state, not an advanced democracy like Japan) and partly because of the decline of the USA as comptent and rational actor on the world stage. Treaty-bound or not, I don't have much faith that the USA would do much wrt Chinese aggression toward Japan, short of an actual invasion (which hopefully will remain very unlikely).

nubela 14y ago
As a Chinese, do you remember the atrocities you did to the Chinese people? You might not remember, but my grandparents remember it vividly. Now the question is, what has Chinese people done to you so far to have you make such a statement?
- wyuenho 14y ago
  "He" did not commit war crimes. His grandparents or grandparent's relatives might have. Please don't equate crimes committed in past generations to crimes committed by this generation. Now, the recent problem has nothing to do with government structures. It's simply a case of geo-political conflict of interests. South Korea is a full-fledged democracy, if they were enough to avoid any conflicts, there wouldn't be sovereignty dispute on the Liancourt Rocks. Japan and China are not in a Cold War. That simply wouldn't make sense since no one has threatened anyone with total annihilation under nuclear weapons yet. There's also a zero chance that China will invade the Japanese homeland, never happened, never will happen. It's more likely that they'll take Diaoyu/Senkaku by force if they have to. Diaoyu/Senkaku is virtually indefensible and uninhabitable pieces of rocks, so I highly doubt that the Chinese will do that unless they can control Taiwan and possibly Okinawa - impossible and unlikely task.
  - bwb 14y ago
    +1 this post, way to provide a well thought out measured response!
- potatolicious 14y ago
  As a Chinese also, do you realize that the person you're talking to has done nothing to the Chinese people? His ancestors (possibly, and possibly not), under a completely different regime that is wholly unlike that which governs Japan today, committed atrocities against your ancestors. He does not remember, because he was not alive to witness or commit said atrocities, or indeed have the tiniest sliver of influence on the regime that did so. You are suggesting moral culpability where there cannot, in any reasonable mind, be any. He has done nothing. He is not his ancestors, and shares exactly zero moral responsibility for their actions when he wasn't even alive. Other the other hand, I have met many fellow Chinese who have expressed, without a sliver of irony, that the blood spilled 7 decades ago needs to be repaid. Yes, I've had people suggest this to my face seriously. They suggest that committing the same atrocities back against the Japanese is somehow just. There is plenty of hate to go around, from everyone. The Chinese people aren't saints, and to believe that only the Japanese are capable of such atrocities is the exact hubris needed to lead the world back down that dark path again. This is a geopolitical conflict between two major powers. Nothing more, nothing less. Any nationalistic cheerleading is strictly playing to the interests of politicians, not any nobler concept like ethnicity, race, or nation.
  - danmaz74 14y ago
    +1000 - if you go back long enough, I'm pretty sure that you can find atrocities committed by any people in the world.
- veidr 14y ago
  That present-day China is a totalitarian state is just a statement of fact about its government, not an opinion or a judgement about the Chinese people. (And personally, I really wish them the best in changing that situation.) But, the Chinese government being what it is, you have to consider it when deciding to live or do business here. Japan was indeed once a dangerous and belligerent actor on the world stage (Nanjing massacre, sex slave camps, attempted genocide, and lots more evil stuff.) However, Japan's military was then thoroughly annihilated, its cities were nuked, its capital was burned to the ground, and most of its leaders were put to death. Throw in a new constitution protecting human rights and the creation of a functioning democratic government, and we end up with an extremely different Japan today, 67 years later. And (in my opinion), today's Japan is a really great place to live and to do almost any kind of technology-related business. So I'm not making any statement absolving Japan's historical atrocities (incidentally, I'm American, and both my grandfathers fought against Japan in WWII). But I also don't think they are all that relevant to the times we live in. The perpetrators are now all dead, and the empire they fought for was thoroughly dismantled before I was born. On the other hand, I'm a lot more interested in what's happening right now. And as far as I can see, Japan doesn't threaten its neighbors or the stability of the region in any way. China, on the other hand, with with its recent threats of military action against Japan, almost daily maritime incursions into Japanese territory, support of North Korea, and so forth, seems extremely unhelpful. (Plus, that whole totalitarianism thing... historically, seems to usually end badly.) So as a practical matter, I think that the interests of regional stability and peaceful business pursuits would probably be better served if Japan had a military more in line with its economic power, rather than relying on the protection of a country across the ocean, most of whose citizens couldn't find Japan on a map.
  - handrake 14y ago
    After seeing how Japanese government handled Fukushima accident, I as a Korean don't feel very safe with them wanting to play with a bigger gun. If Japanese government doesn't or can't take care of its own people, how do I believe it will care so much about world peace?
    - OGinparadise 14y ago
- yareally 14y ago
  What happened post WWI to the end of WWII by past Japanese that no longer run the country was an atrocity to say the least. As others mentioned, those people are no longer governing the country and their ideas are not carried by the majority. However, what is somewhat alarming is how Japan went from being a civilized country that treated prisoners humanely[1] in WWI with Germans they captured to what happened following The War. Although humans can be brutal, it still shocks me whenever I see examples of how a population can do almost a 180 (regardless of country [not trying to pick on Japan, they were just the discussion topic]) in such a short time. Makes one pause to think how a cultured, intelligent population can go astray so quickly under the wrong leadership. [1] http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11859 http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11859
handrake 14y ago
But I, as a Korean, (and I'm sure many other Asians too) can't help myself but to consider it as a big threat to the region's peace as I see tensions getting worse and worse between Japan and China/Korea especially on their maritime boundaries. Of course, you may have something on your own to say but still I don't think you can say Japan is making the right move every step of the way to the world peace. After looking back to what happened from military expansion of Japanese imperialism back in WWII, I'm sure you understand why other Asian countries oppose to the idea and will stay that way.
- pm90 14y ago
  I think Korea (I'm assuming RoK) has less to fear from Japan than from DPRK. The presence of US troops in both RoK and Japan pretty much prevents any kind of escalation of violence (if there is any to begin with). Besides, Japan's constitution explicitly forbids it from declaring war or maintaining a large offensive military[1]. After looking back to what happened from military expansion of Japanese imperialism back in WWII, Except that Japan is now a democracy instead of a military-governed totalitarian state [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Const...
  - bergie 14y ago
    It seems the new nationalist government of Japan wants to change the constitution: Mr Abe has made no secret of his wish to revise three of the country’s basic modern charters: the American-imposed constitution of 1946, committing Japan to pacifism; the education law, which Mr Abe thinks undervalues patriotism; and the security treaty with the United States, under which Japan plays a junior role. To describe the new government as “conservative” hardly captures its true character. This is a cabinet of radical nationalists. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21569046-shinzo-abes-appointment-scarily-right-wing-cabinet-bodes-ill-region-back-future http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21569046-shinzo-abes-appo...
- OGinparadise 14y ago
  What you said is probably worrying think tanks but now it's totally different from back then: S Korea is no slouch and people are more aware. Not to mention that any rise of Japan will be checked by China. The last thing you want is a China that fears no one.
riffraff 14y ago
obligatory references for military spending for the lazy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e... and http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=279 http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=279 (2002 data, but still quite impressive)
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

by veidr 14y ago

nubela 14y ago

As a Chinese, do you remember the atrocities you did to the Chinese people? You might not remember, but my grandparents remember it vividly. Now the question is, what has Chinese people done to you so far to have you make such a statement?

wyuenho 14y ago
"He" did not commit war crimes. His grandparents or grandparent's relatives might have. Please don't equate crimes committed in past generations to crimes committed by this generation. Now, the recent problem has nothing to do with government structures. It's simply a case of geo-political conflict of interests. South Korea is a full-fledged democracy, if they were enough to avoid any conflicts, there wouldn't be sovereignty dispute on the Liancourt Rocks. Japan and China are not in a Cold War. That simply wouldn't make sense since no one has threatened anyone with total annihilation under nuclear weapons yet. There's also a zero chance that China will invade the Japanese homeland, never happened, never will happen. It's more likely that they'll take Diaoyu/Senkaku by force if they have to. Diaoyu/Senkaku is virtually indefensible and uninhabitable pieces of rocks, so I highly doubt that the Chinese will do that unless they can control Taiwan and possibly Okinawa - impossible and unlikely task.
- bwb 14y ago
  +1 this post, way to provide a well thought out measured response!
potatolicious 14y ago
As a Chinese also, do you realize that the person you're talking to has done nothing to the Chinese people? His ancestors (possibly, and possibly not), under a completely different regime that is wholly unlike that which governs Japan today, committed atrocities against your ancestors. He does not remember, because he was not alive to witness or commit said atrocities, or indeed have the tiniest sliver of influence on the regime that did so. You are suggesting moral culpability where there cannot, in any reasonable mind, be any. He has done nothing. He is not his ancestors, and shares exactly zero moral responsibility for their actions when he wasn't even alive. Other the other hand, I have met many fellow Chinese who have expressed, without a sliver of irony, that the blood spilled 7 decades ago needs to be repaid. Yes, I've had people suggest this to my face seriously. They suggest that committing the same atrocities back against the Japanese is somehow just. There is plenty of hate to go around, from everyone. The Chinese people aren't saints, and to believe that only the Japanese are capable of such atrocities is the exact hubris needed to lead the world back down that dark path again. This is a geopolitical conflict between two major powers. Nothing more, nothing less. Any nationalistic cheerleading is strictly playing to the interests of politicians, not any nobler concept like ethnicity, race, or nation.
- danmaz74 14y ago
  +1000 - if you go back long enough, I'm pretty sure that you can find atrocities committed by any people in the world.
veidr 14y ago
That present-day China is a totalitarian state is just a statement of fact about its government, not an opinion or a judgement about the Chinese people. (And personally, I really wish them the best in changing that situation.) But, the Chinese government being what it is, you have to consider it when deciding to live or do business here. Japan was indeed once a dangerous and belligerent actor on the world stage (Nanjing massacre, sex slave camps, attempted genocide, and lots more evil stuff.) However, Japan's military was then thoroughly annihilated, its cities were nuked, its capital was burned to the ground, and most of its leaders were put to death. Throw in a new constitution protecting human rights and the creation of a functioning democratic government, and we end up with an extremely different Japan today, 67 years later. And (in my opinion), today's Japan is a really great place to live and to do almost any kind of technology-related business. So I'm not making any statement absolving Japan's historical atrocities (incidentally, I'm American, and both my grandfathers fought against Japan in WWII). But I also don't think they are all that relevant to the times we live in. The perpetrators are now all dead, and the empire they fought for was thoroughly dismantled before I was born. On the other hand, I'm a lot more interested in what's happening right now. And as far as I can see, Japan doesn't threaten its neighbors or the stability of the region in any way. China, on the other hand, with with its recent threats of military action against Japan, almost daily maritime incursions into Japanese territory, support of North Korea, and so forth, seems extremely unhelpful. (Plus, that whole totalitarianism thing... historically, seems to usually end badly.) So as a practical matter, I think that the interests of regional stability and peaceful business pursuits would probably be better served if Japan had a military more in line with its economic power, rather than relying on the protection of a country across the ocean, most of whose citizens couldn't find Japan on a map.
- handrake 14y ago
  After seeing how Japanese government handled Fukushima accident, I as a Korean don't feel very safe with them wanting to play with a bigger gun. If Japanese government doesn't or can't take care of its own people, how do I believe it will care so much about world peace?
  - OGinparadise 14y ago
yareally 14y ago
What happened post WWI to the end of WWII by past Japanese that no longer run the country was an atrocity to say the least. As others mentioned, those people are no longer governing the country and their ideas are not carried by the majority. However, what is somewhat alarming is how Japan went from being a civilized country that treated prisoners humanely[1] in WWI with Germans they captured to what happened following The War. Although humans can be brutal, it still shocks me whenever I see examples of how a population can do almost a 180 (regardless of country [not trying to pick on Japan, they were just the discussion topic]) in such a short time. Makes one pause to think how a cultured, intelligent population can go astray so quickly under the wrong leadership. [1] http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11859 http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11859

handrake 14y ago

But I, as a Korean, (and I'm sure many other Asians too) can't help myself but to consider it as a big threat to the region's peace as I see tensions getting worse and worse between Japan and China/Korea especially on their maritime boundaries. Of course, you may have something on your own to say but still I don't think you can say Japan is making the right move every step of the way to the world peace. After looking back to what happened from military expansion of Japanese imperialism back in WWII, I'm sure you understand why other Asian countries oppose to the idea and will stay that way.

pm90 14y ago
I think Korea (I'm assuming RoK) has less to fear from Japan than from DPRK. The presence of US troops in both RoK and Japan pretty much prevents any kind of escalation of violence (if there is any to begin with). Besides, Japan's constitution explicitly forbids it from declaring war or maintaining a large offensive military[1]. After looking back to what happened from military expansion of Japanese imperialism back in WWII, Except that Japan is now a democracy instead of a military-governed totalitarian state [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Const...
- bergie 14y ago
  It seems the new nationalist government of Japan wants to change the constitution: Mr Abe has made no secret of his wish to revise three of the country’s basic modern charters: the American-imposed constitution of 1946, committing Japan to pacifism; the education law, which Mr Abe thinks undervalues patriotism; and the security treaty with the United States, under which Japan plays a junior role. To describe the new government as “conservative” hardly captures its true character. This is a cabinet of radical nationalists. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21569046-shinzo-abes-appointment-scarily-right-wing-cabinet-bodes-ill-region-back-future http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21569046-shinzo-abes-appo...
OGinparadise 14y ago
What you said is probably worrying think tanks but now it's totally different from back then: S Korea is no slouch and people are more aware. Not to mention that any rise of Japan will be checked by China. The last thing you want is a China that fears no one.

riffraff 14y ago

obligatory references for military spending for the lazy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e... and http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=279 http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=279 (2002 data, but still quite impressive)

deleted 14y ago

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