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> The thing is, poor school districts are often, comparatively, unattractive and unsafe places to work even with the same expenditures of funds Why is this pro

> The thing is, poor school districts are often, comparatively, unattractive and unsafe places to work even with the same expenditures of funds Why is this problem so difficult to fix, at least within the school environment? Schools are a relatively confined space and should be quite easy to police. > And NCLB wasn't created to fix this problem, it was created to divert funding from education to private testing vendors and provide a mechanism to rate public schools as failing as a political maneuver to build support for privatization of schools. Sure, that could very likely be the ulterior motive for the program (among other similar theories), but the public justification for NCLB was nevertheless to improve schools in poor areas.

japhyr 14y ago
"Schools are a relatively confined space and should be quite easy to police." It's about a lot more than "policing" a confined space. It's about dealing with all of the issues that come with high-poverty areas. Children come to school hungry, tired, and traumatized. They have had ineffective teachers for multiple years in the past. Many have already given up, because they have felt given up on. These are not "quite easy" problems to fix.
- ktsmith 14y ago
  > They have had ineffective teachers for multiple years in the past. Even those that have been fortunate enough to have great teachers may not be doing as well as their peers in schools with better economic surroundings. Having involved parents can make a huge difference in academic achievement. > Children come to school hungry Year after year the one thing my wife will point out as having made a positive impact at the schools she's taught at has been her students getting breakfast at school every day as part of the routine. Initially she found it disruptive but over time they have logged fewer behavior related incidents, fewer nurse visits and more attentiveness in the morning. It's an anecdote but four years without it followed by four years with it and she's convinced. All eight years were at Title I schools with 100% free/reduced lunch as well as the before and after school meal program. The specific change was serving the morning meal in the classroom ensuring the kids were getting it.
dragonwriter 14y ago
It is difficult to fix "within the school environment" because it is a problem with the socioeconomic environment within which the school environment is embedded (including the population from which the school draws pupils), and it involves the area through which teachers have to transit to get to the school. Correcting for it maybe can be done, but it costs money, which means even with state level policies which aim to equalize school funding across rich and poor districts the poor districts end up behind in terms of academic resources, because they have to spend more money counteracting the effects of being in poor districts.
tossacct 14y ago
>>>Why is this problem so difficult to fix, at least within the school environment? Schools are a relatively confined space and should be quite easy to police. People who want to commit violence can use all means physically available to them. There are violence problems in many prisons as well, another "relatively confined space". Does this answer your question adequately?
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  No, because prisons are places you can't kick people out of (as that would defeat their entire purpose). If students are committing acts of physical violence, send them to juvy hall. Problem solved.
  - tossacct 14y ago
    That's a fair point, I misunderstood the word "to police" your initial post. Unfortunately, the system is already supposed to work like this, yet the problem remains unsolved. I have friends that are teachers that make constant calls to police trying to get these kids kicked out of school, all to no avail. Additionally, my teacher friends say that probably 60% of their students would be in "juvy hall" if the police would respond to their pleas to remove these children from the classroom. I personally think it would be worth the money to do the experiment, but I'm not sure that everyone would agree. Here are the costs that I was able to find quickly on google: http://www.bestplaces.net/county/illinois/cook http://www.bestplaces.net/county/illinois/cook http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/us/reducing-jail-rolls-would-trim-cook-county-costs-preckwinkle-says.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/us/reducing-jail-rolls-wou... http://www.illinoisloop.org/spending.html http://www.illinoisloop.org/spending.html Cost per student per year in cook county Illinois: $11,333 $/Adult Inmate/year in cook county Illinois: $50,000 Note:it costs $240,000/juvenile inmate/year but I assume this is because there are so many fewer juvenile inmates. I think that there are probably cheaper ways to incentivize students to not use physical violence, but of course the proof is the results of the experiment.

japhyr 14y ago

"Schools are a relatively confined space and should be quite easy to police." It's about a lot more than "policing" a confined space. It's about dealing with all of the issues that come with high-poverty areas. Children come to school hungry, tired, and traumatized. They have had ineffective teachers for multiple years in the past. Many have already given up, because they have felt given up on. These are not "quite easy" problems to fix.

ktsmith 14y ago
> They have had ineffective teachers for multiple years in the past. Even those that have been fortunate enough to have great teachers may not be doing as well as their peers in schools with better economic surroundings. Having involved parents can make a huge difference in academic achievement. > Children come to school hungry Year after year the one thing my wife will point out as having made a positive impact at the schools she's taught at has been her students getting breakfast at school every day as part of the routine. Initially she found it disruptive but over time they have logged fewer behavior related incidents, fewer nurse visits and more attentiveness in the morning. It's an anecdote but four years without it followed by four years with it and she's convinced. All eight years were at Title I schools with 100% free/reduced lunch as well as the before and after school meal program. The specific change was serving the morning meal in the classroom ensuring the kids were getting it.

dragonwriter 14y ago

It is difficult to fix "within the school environment" because it is a problem with the socioeconomic environment within which the school environment is embedded (including the population from which the school draws pupils), and it involves the area through which teachers have to transit to get to the school. Correcting for it maybe can be done, but it costs money, which means even with state level policies which aim to equalize school funding across rich and poor districts the poor districts end up behind in terms of academic resources, because they have to spend more money counteracting the effects of being in poor districts.

tossacct 14y ago

>>>Why is this problem so difficult to fix, at least within the school environment? Schools are a relatively confined space and should be quite easy to police. People who want to commit violence can use all means physically available to them. There are violence problems in many prisons as well, another "relatively confined space". Does this answer your question adequately?

w1ntermute 14y ago
No, because prisons are places you can't kick people out of (as that would defeat their entire purpose). If students are committing acts of physical violence, send them to juvy hall. Problem solved.
- tossacct 14y ago
  That's a fair point, I misunderstood the word "to police" your initial post. Unfortunately, the system is already supposed to work like this, yet the problem remains unsolved. I have friends that are teachers that make constant calls to police trying to get these kids kicked out of school, all to no avail. Additionally, my teacher friends say that probably 60% of their students would be in "juvy hall" if the police would respond to their pleas to remove these children from the classroom. I personally think it would be worth the money to do the experiment, but I'm not sure that everyone would agree. Here are the costs that I was able to find quickly on google: http://www.bestplaces.net/county/illinois/cook http://www.bestplaces.net/county/illinois/cook http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/us/reducing-jail-rolls-would-trim-cook-county-costs-preckwinkle-says.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/us/reducing-jail-rolls-wou... http://www.illinoisloop.org/spending.html http://www.illinoisloop.org/spending.html Cost per student per year in cook county Illinois: $11,333 $/Adult Inmate/year in cook county Illinois: $50,000 Note:it costs $240,000/juvenile inmate/year but I assume this is because there are so many fewer juvenile inmates. I think that there are probably cheaper ways to incentivize students to not use physical violence, but of course the proof is the results of the experiment.