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> OO buzzwords and programming fads that come and go in "higher-level languages" simply end up making a bigger mess of things as a project grows No, it's not t

by zvrba 14y ago

> OO buzzwords and programming fads that come and go in "higher-level languages" simply end up making a bigger mess of things as a project grows No, it's not the language features which make a mess. It's people lacking judgement and common sense. (Like, trying to apply patterns everywhere. Been domain-specific [crypto] consultant on such a project and watched it smash the schedule by more than 2x. It wasn't the language [Java], it were stupid people.) > sounds like he's written multiple lines of C to me I don't contend that he's written a lot of C. I DO, however, contend that he's written some ANSI C. If you're writing ANSI C, you have to account for AT LEAST all of the following behaviors: https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/seccode/CC.+Undefined+Behavior https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/seccode... https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/seccode/DD.+Unspecified+Behavior https://www.securecoding.cert.org/confluence/display/seccode... For example, if f is some function, then in the sequence int x = 0; f(x++, x++); the call to f is undefined behavior because x is modified twice without an intervening sequence point. Anybody claiming that such language is "high-level" is a moron, regardless of their "accomplishments".

ehaliewicz 14y ago
In scheme, argument evaluation order is not specified. So, (pretending that set! returns the assigned value), (f (set! x (+ 1 x)) (set! x (+ 1 x)) ) is undefined and unpredictable as well. I don't think anyone would claim Scheme isn't high level.
- zvrba 14y ago
  "Undefined behavior" in C is much more insidious than merely "unspecified" or "unpredictable". All those security holes and exploits resulting from buffer overflows, stack overwrites, heap spraying, etc. are manifestations of UB made possible by a badly written program. (Or by the interaction between an invalid program and an optimistic compiler, as in the case of assuming strict pointer aliasing.)

by zvrba 14y ago

ehaliewicz 14y ago

In scheme, argument evaluation order is not specified. So, (pretending that set! returns the assigned value), (f (set! x (+ 1 x)) (set! x (+ 1 x)) ) is undefined and unpredictable as well. I don't think anyone would claim Scheme isn't high level.

zvrba 14y ago
"Undefined behavior" in C is much more insidious than merely "unspecified" or "unpredictable". All those security holes and exploits resulting from buffer overflows, stack overwrites, heap spraying, etc. are manifestations of UB made possible by a badly written program. (Or by the interaction between an invalid program and an optimistic compiler, as in the case of assuming strict pointer aliasing.)