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Not only do I not use any, but in thinking about this question I realized that the only client apps I care about are Firefox and the shell. Everything else I u

by pg 18y ago

Not only do I not use any, but in thinking about this question I realized that the only client apps I care about are Firefox and the shell. Everything else I use is online. If there was a way to get a shell in Firefox (which there probably is, somehow) I would be fine with a computer that only ran one app. Which means Andreessen's vision has now happened; at least for n = 1. Desktop sw companies are about to discover a variant of Wilde's remark: the only thing worse than being pirated is not being pirated.

staunch 18y ago
The shell is kind of just a launcher for additional programs though. So seems only fair that you count the other local programs you run (maybe just ssh?).
- pg 18y ago
  Yes, true. I use the standard Unix utils. Sounds weird to call them desktop apps though. They feel more like part of the OS. I think of the desktop as something that got put on top of Unix in OSX, and terminal windows as holes in it.
  - noonespecial 18y ago
    I think of the desktop as something that got put on top of Unix in OSX, and terminal windows as holes in it. Yes! I've been saying "put a hole in your GUI and get back to basics" for a decade now to quizzical looks. Sweet validation.
magice 18y ago
Come on, you can use only one application for you computer. Its name is Emacs :D (yes, Emacs can use to show images and play music. I would guess porting something like Gecko into would be possible. In that case, why bother a separate browser?)
patio11 18y ago
Desktop sw companies are about to discover a variant of Wilde's remark: the only thing worse than being pirated is not being pirated. I'm guessing you've probably never sent a greeting card with a Strawberry Shortcake on it. The company that makes those, American Greetings, sold $1.5 billion dollars worth of product last year. Much of it was paper, although they also have an online division which charges a lot of people a lot of money to send birthday cards. (I only know this because my mom says she pays $50 a year for the animated flash cards she mails me all the time.) What relevance does this have for desktop software? Simple: it should remind you that there is an entire universe of users out there who do not have Paul Graham's problems. Many of these users have problems which can be solved best by desktop software. Those users will keep desktop software companies in business for a while. (Did I mention one point five billion dollars of paper greeting cards? And this is HOW many years after email?) As long as I'm on the subject, ubiquitous net connectivity gives us desktop developers some interesting options against piracy. One is moving value from the client to the server. I do it a little these days (for non-piracy reasons), and if I can figure it out I'm sure the rest of the industry can. You can't pirate a desktop app that requires connecting to a server to function (+) any more than you can pirate Basecamp by downloading Firefox. + Edit for clarity: I don't mean in the sense of "phone home", I mean in the sense of "value is provided by code or data which only exists on the server". Think WoW: without connectivity its the world's most expensively engineered paperweight.
- pg 18y ago
  People like your mom may use computers differently than people like me, but the difference isn't random. It's more of a time-shift. E.g. I start using desktop computers in 1980, they're ubiquitous 15 year later; I start using email in 1985, it's ubiquitous 15 years later; I get a t1 in 1996, broadband is ubiquitous 15 years later; etc. That's why the adapted Wilde quote applies. I didn't say desktop sw will instantly disappear, just inexorably.
  - patio11 18y ago
    Right, but email is ubiquitous now, and people still buy paper greeting cards to send to people. Not because they don't use email -- most greeting cards buyers do use email. But they get something out of a paper greeting card that they cannot get out of email. (Some of them get it out of an electronic greeting card, some not so much.) I have six online competitors to my desktop application that I know about. They're made by wonderful people. Some of them are even free. Many of them show ads for my product and they're, empirically, the best places for me to put ads. (Google will helpfully let you see what websites are making you money. Other AdWords users should really get to be friends with the Placement Report. Fascinating stuff there. Tangent over.) Given the choice, today, between a no-install, free online application which is staring them in the face and clicking to another website, downloading something, installing it, running it, playing around, clicking purchase, reaching for the credit card, typing in their details, and inputing a license key, a few hundred people have said "Oh, easy -- I want the downloaded one." Why is that? There are a couple of reasons (which you would be intensely bored about because you've presumably never had to create bingo cards for 25 people), but it boils down to "The experience of using the desktop application sucks a lot less than the experience of using the web application, for at least some users". They get something out of the desktop version that they couldn't get from the web version, and voted with their wallet. That's just the view from my little, teeny wedge of the economy. Are all similar wedges going to inexorably vanish? Probably, if you come at it from the assumption that everyone will eventually come to work like you. To misquote another Englishman: "There are more needs in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are answerable by the types of products you yourself buy."
nostrademons 18y ago
I noticed at work recently that despite having gigantic muli-monitor setups, everyone had the same apps open. About 6-8 terminal windows, 3-6 gvim/emacs windows, and Firefox. Seems like a waste of all that graphics hardware to me, but I guess that's what we find productive to use...
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by pg 18y ago

staunch 18y ago

The shell is kind of just a launcher for additional programs though. So seems only fair that you count the other local programs you run (maybe just ssh?).

pg 18y ago
Yes, true. I use the standard Unix utils. Sounds weird to call them desktop apps though. They feel more like part of the OS. I think of the desktop as something that got put on top of Unix in OSX, and terminal windows as holes in it.
- noonespecial 18y ago
  I think of the desktop as something that got put on top of Unix in OSX, and terminal windows as holes in it. Yes! I've been saying "put a hole in your GUI and get back to basics" for a decade now to quizzical looks. Sweet validation.

magice 18y ago

Come on, you can use only one application for you computer. Its name is Emacs :D (yes, Emacs can use to show images and play music. I would guess porting something like Gecko into would be possible. In that case, why bother a separate browser?)

patio11 18y ago

Desktop sw companies are about to discover a variant of Wilde's remark: the only thing worse than being pirated is not being pirated. I'm guessing you've probably never sent a greeting card with a Strawberry Shortcake on it. The company that makes those, American Greetings, sold $1.5 billion dollars worth of product last year. Much of it was paper, although they also have an online division which charges a lot of people a lot of money to send birthday cards. (I only know this because my mom says she pays $50 a year for the animated flash cards she mails me all the time.) What relevance does this have for desktop software? Simple: it should remind you that there is an entire universe of users out there who do not have Paul Graham's problems. Many of these users have problems which can be solved best by desktop software. Those users will keep desktop software companies in business for a while. (Did I mention one point five billion dollars of paper greeting cards? And this is HOW many years after email?) As long as I'm on the subject, ubiquitous net connectivity gives us desktop developers some interesting options against piracy. One is moving value from the client to the server. I do it a little these days (for non-piracy reasons), and if I can figure it out I'm sure the rest of the industry can. You can't pirate a desktop app that requires connecting to a server to function (+) any more than you can pirate Basecamp by downloading Firefox. + Edit for clarity: I don't mean in the sense of "phone home", I mean in the sense of "value is provided by code or data which only exists on the server". Think WoW: without connectivity its the world's most expensively engineered paperweight.

pg 18y ago
People like your mom may use computers differently than people like me, but the difference isn't random. It's more of a time-shift. E.g. I start using desktop computers in 1980, they're ubiquitous 15 year later; I start using email in 1985, it's ubiquitous 15 years later; I get a t1 in 1996, broadband is ubiquitous 15 years later; etc. That's why the adapted Wilde quote applies. I didn't say desktop sw will instantly disappear, just inexorably.
- patio11 18y ago
  Right, but email is ubiquitous now, and people still buy paper greeting cards to send to people. Not because they don't use email -- most greeting cards buyers do use email. But they get something out of a paper greeting card that they cannot get out of email. (Some of them get it out of an electronic greeting card, some not so much.) I have six online competitors to my desktop application that I know about. They're made by wonderful people. Some of them are even free. Many of them show ads for my product and they're, empirically, the best places for me to put ads. (Google will helpfully let you see what websites are making you money. Other AdWords users should really get to be friends with the Placement Report. Fascinating stuff there. Tangent over.) Given the choice, today, between a no-install, free online application which is staring them in the face and clicking to another website, downloading something, installing it, running it, playing around, clicking purchase, reaching for the credit card, typing in their details, and inputing a license key, a few hundred people have said "Oh, easy -- I want the downloaded one." Why is that? There are a couple of reasons (which you would be intensely bored about because you've presumably never had to create bingo cards for 25 people), but it boils down to "The experience of using the desktop application sucks a lot less than the experience of using the web application, for at least some users". They get something out of the desktop version that they couldn't get from the web version, and voted with their wallet. That's just the view from my little, teeny wedge of the economy. Are all similar wedges going to inexorably vanish? Probably, if you come at it from the assumption that everyone will eventually come to work like you. To misquote another Englishman: "There are more needs in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are answerable by the types of products you yourself buy."

nostrademons 18y ago

I noticed at work recently that despite having gigantic muli-monitor setups, everyone had the same apps open. About 6-8 terminal windows, 3-6 gvim/emacs windows, and Firefox. Seems like a waste of all that graphics hardware to me, but I guess that's what we find productive to use...

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