5 ms·

I disagree. The courses just show how high the demand is for courses. In general you often hear stories in the newspaper about "we cannot hire programmers!" bu

I disagree. The courses just show how high the demand is for courses. In general you often hear stories in the newspaper about "we cannot hire programmers!" but I know tons of unemployed programmers. If you go actually look at the job postings in a lot of areas it is slim pickings right now. The pay is bad, the benefits are worse, and the competition is high. Schools continue to pump out CS grads and compensation continues to plummet. I think what they mean when they say "there aren't enough programmers" is "we have to pay them too much, look at India!!"

btian 14y ago
I highly disagree with that statement. Personally I'm a recent CS grad, and I don't know any of my classmates who is unemployed. I also wouldn't describe my current job as "pay is bad, the benefits are worse, and the competition is high" because that would be lying. Also, we're hiring. Check out the careers section http://www.rhythmia.com/ http://www.rhythmia.com/
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  That's odd, because when I graduated CS I myself spent a year unemployed as did many of my peers (some of which who wound up going into other fields entirely). From people who graduated after me (in particular 2008 and beyond) they talk of even longer unemployment and even worse prospects. Unless you work in a niche area it is damn hard out there.
  - learn 14y ago
    Well, did it have anything to do with you or your peers? As a "new" CS student(I am mid twenties) I have seen plenty of people who clearly do not appear to belong in CS. Just pure attitude about it makes it clear, usually it is that they do not want to learn(skipping assignments, doing work before class, etc.). Not that this is something that applies to you or your peers, but it is something I find important as a core motivation to learn and succeed. However, I do find it easy to blame the market. I also find it commonly used as a scapegoat for those struggling to find a job.
  - btian 14y ago
    I can only speak for myself, but as what andrewem also mentioned, I have been getting emails from recruiters too albeit at a lower frequency of about once a week. I got my current job 6 months before graduation. Won't call C++ a niche area. I don't know where you are, but have you considered moving to a place with more developer jobs?
    - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
      I have considered it but the cost of living is a fair bit higher (e.g. London). So we're talking about a 20% cost of living increase. Even the jobs coming out of London aren't that good. My current job is better than most. As I said there is a lot of unemployed programmers around here and competition remains tight. A lot of people got thrown out when a bunch of service and or financial companies went bust, and they've been stealing all of the interesting or well compensated work.
  - petercooper 14y ago
    You mentioned London so I'm guessing you're in the UK? From my POV, the US and UK markets are chalk and cheese right now. The UK is still sorely in the duldrums with lower salaries and opportunities (especially outside of London.) The US certainly has it far better for programmers right now.
- andrewem 14y ago
  I see you're in the Boston area, as I am. Here it's a feeding frenzy for programmers, to judge by the number of emails I get from recruiters, probably at least one a day on average, and the high ratio of people at Boston Ruby meetups (http://bostonrb.org http://bostonrb.org) who are trying to hire versus people who are looking for jobs. None of the programmers I know have had trouble getting jobs, and salaries don't appear to be falling. UnoriginalGuy said "If you go actually look at the job postings in a lot of areas it is slim pickings right now." I suspect he's right, and there are places/fields where demand is poor, but there are also others where that's not the case.
  - pnathan 14y ago
    The demand for programmers is geographically based. Essentially, if you're not in SF, NYC, Boston, DC, Seattle, DFW, or Phoenix (maybe a couple other high-population areas) I missed too), it's not going to be a easy job hunt.
    - cstejerean 14y ago
      Add at least Chicago and Portland and don't forget that a growing number of companies in these cities are willing to pay for relocation or hire folks to work remotely.
- TallGuyShort 14y ago
  It depends on where you are. I'm in silicon valley and yes - regardless of the compensation or benefits you offer it seems impossible to satisfy the demand for programmers. I tried really hard to get a job (specifically, one that shared my interests and appeared to have good benefits) near Denver for a year and couldn't - but I get recruiters contacting me every day near San Francisco.
  - eric_the_read 14y ago
    Sounds like you've left Denver already; that's too bad, because we're hiring Rails devs in the Denver area-- http://www.comverge.com/careers/ http://www.comverge.com/careers/
    - TallGuyShort 14y ago
      I'm not much of a rails guy - but I'll remember to look you up when I decide it's time to move back :)
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Among the few unemployed programmers I know, there seems to be a universal theme: either the unwillingness or the inability to relocate. I have to say, having relocated several thousand miles myself, I find it hard to sympathize with the unwilling.
pmichaud 14y ago
That's weird, I've never once met an unemployed programmer.
- thesis 14y ago
  Really? Have you ever tried to hire one? They're out there.
  - pmichaud 14y ago
    Sure, but the only people I've interviewed have either been employed at the time and looking to move, or they have had really specific job requirements, like: I want to be a web dev, but I want to write python only, but nothing Django. I wouldn't really call that unemployed in the sense of desperation that most people mean.
- ConstantineXVI 14y ago
  As I happen to be such a thing: hello. (Not for much longer, I'd like to think)
netcan 14y ago
It's a step or two away, but demand for programmers & demand for courses is hardly unrelated.
venus 14y ago
> I know tons of unemployed programmers I think you need to clarify this rather questionable statement. I do not know a single unwilfully unemployed programmer.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  > I think you need to clarify this rather questionable statement. I speak to other humans who have a BSc in CS who are currently unemployed and have been unemployed an extended period. If you need further clarification I am happy to try and provide it. But if you could tell me exactly what you want to know that would be helpful.
  - cstejerean 14y ago
    Where are you based?
  - venus 14y ago
    I see from other comments you're from non-London-area England, so excuse my comment - I was thinking of the US or Australia, where demand for programmers could only be described as "red hot". I'd advise your unemployed CS grad friends to come over here (Sydney) for a working holiday; they'll get work within days if they have in-demand skills (web/ios/android).
philwelch 14y ago
I guess it must depend where you live, because there aren't nearly enough programmers to fill job openings where I am, and these jobs already pay more and more every year. It seems like you're in the UK, and outside of London at that--that is a bit rough, but in the US it's a veritable bonanza and the worst that happens is that you'll have to relocate.
- heidar 14y ago
  As someone who relocated to the UK I would pack up tomorrow for a well paying and fairly interesting job. The numbers discussed in the comments on this post seem astronomical to someone living in the UK (outside London) and on top of that you don't pay as much tax, if any at all!
knowaveragejoe 14y ago
I don't see this at all. There are plenty of openings in every major city, the distinction is the majority of them are from companies that treat programming as an after-thought, and thus you won't even get in the door if you don't have a degree or some absurd experience requirement because HR is screening applicants instead of a technical person. I work in DC, which arguably has one of the more vibrant tech scenes in the country outside of SF, NYC and Chicago. With that said, my managers have told me they spent months looking, both themselves and through recruiters, without finding any qualified candidates. I don't have a college degree and I have minimal professional experience in the field(internship). I don't even have much of a portfolio. I've been interested in computers since I was ~12, and programming for a bout that long. They hired me because I ask the right kinds of questions and have proven I can solve my own problems for the most part. Now, the pay and the benefits aren't -amazing- like what you'll find from some hot companies, but it's pretty decent, more than enough for a comfortable lifestyle and buying myself some shiny toys every now and then. I would gladly take the lesser pay and much more relaxed work environment over the "rockstar programmer" falsehood that would likely be projected on me at a higher paying company.

btian 14y ago

I highly disagree with that statement. Personally I'm a recent CS grad, and I don't know any of my classmates who is unemployed. I also wouldn't describe my current job as "pay is bad, the benefits are worse, and the competition is high" because that would be lying. Also, we're hiring. Check out the careers section http://www.rhythmia.com/ http://www.rhythmia.com/

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
That's odd, because when I graduated CS I myself spent a year unemployed as did many of my peers (some of which who wound up going into other fields entirely). From people who graduated after me (in particular 2008 and beyond) they talk of even longer unemployment and even worse prospects. Unless you work in a niche area it is damn hard out there.
- learn 14y ago
  Well, did it have anything to do with you or your peers? As a "new" CS student(I am mid twenties) I have seen plenty of people who clearly do not appear to belong in CS. Just pure attitude about it makes it clear, usually it is that they do not want to learn(skipping assignments, doing work before class, etc.). Not that this is something that applies to you or your peers, but it is something I find important as a core motivation to learn and succeed. However, I do find it easy to blame the market. I also find it commonly used as a scapegoat for those struggling to find a job.
- btian 14y ago
  I can only speak for myself, but as what andrewem also mentioned, I have been getting emails from recruiters too albeit at a lower frequency of about once a week. I got my current job 6 months before graduation. Won't call C++ a niche area. I don't know where you are, but have you considered moving to a place with more developer jobs?
  - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
    I have considered it but the cost of living is a fair bit higher (e.g. London). So we're talking about a 20% cost of living increase. Even the jobs coming out of London aren't that good. My current job is better than most. As I said there is a lot of unemployed programmers around here and competition remains tight. A lot of people got thrown out when a bunch of service and or financial companies went bust, and they've been stealing all of the interesting or well compensated work.
- petercooper 14y ago
  You mentioned London so I'm guessing you're in the UK? From my POV, the US and UK markets are chalk and cheese right now. The UK is still sorely in the duldrums with lower salaries and opportunities (especially outside of London.) The US certainly has it far better for programmers right now.
andrewem 14y ago
I see you're in the Boston area, as I am. Here it's a feeding frenzy for programmers, to judge by the number of emails I get from recruiters, probably at least one a day on average, and the high ratio of people at Boston Ruby meetups (http://bostonrb.org http://bostonrb.org) who are trying to hire versus people who are looking for jobs. None of the programmers I know have had trouble getting jobs, and salaries don't appear to be falling. UnoriginalGuy said "If you go actually look at the job postings in a lot of areas it is slim pickings right now." I suspect he's right, and there are places/fields where demand is poor, but there are also others where that's not the case.
- pnathan 14y ago
  The demand for programmers is geographically based. Essentially, if you're not in SF, NYC, Boston, DC, Seattle, DFW, or Phoenix (maybe a couple other high-population areas) I missed too), it's not going to be a easy job hunt.
  - cstejerean 14y ago
    Add at least Chicago and Portland and don't forget that a growing number of companies in these cities are willing to pay for relocation or hire folks to work remotely.
TallGuyShort 14y ago
It depends on where you are. I'm in silicon valley and yes - regardless of the compensation or benefits you offer it seems impossible to satisfy the demand for programmers. I tried really hard to get a job (specifically, one that shared my interests and appeared to have good benefits) near Denver for a year and couldn't - but I get recruiters contacting me every day near San Francisco.
- eric_the_read 14y ago
  Sounds like you've left Denver already; that's too bad, because we're hiring Rails devs in the Denver area-- http://www.comverge.com/careers/ http://www.comverge.com/careers/
  - TallGuyShort 14y ago
    I'm not much of a rails guy - but I'll remember to look you up when I decide it's time to move back :)
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Among the few unemployed programmers I know, there seems to be a universal theme: either the unwillingness or the inability to relocate. I have to say, having relocated several thousand miles myself, I find it hard to sympathize with the unwilling.

pmichaud 14y ago

That's weird, I've never once met an unemployed programmer.

thesis 14y ago
Really? Have you ever tried to hire one? They're out there.
- pmichaud 14y ago
  Sure, but the only people I've interviewed have either been employed at the time and looking to move, or they have had really specific job requirements, like: I want to be a web dev, but I want to write python only, but nothing Django. I wouldn't really call that unemployed in the sense of desperation that most people mean.
ConstantineXVI 14y ago
As I happen to be such a thing: hello. (Not for much longer, I'd like to think)

netcan 14y ago

It's a step or two away, but demand for programmers & demand for courses is hardly unrelated.

venus 14y ago

> I know tons of unemployed programmers I think you need to clarify this rather questionable statement. I do not know a single unwilfully unemployed programmer.

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
> I think you need to clarify this rather questionable statement. I speak to other humans who have a BSc in CS who are currently unemployed and have been unemployed an extended period. If you need further clarification I am happy to try and provide it. But if you could tell me exactly what you want to know that would be helpful.
- cstejerean 14y ago
  Where are you based?
- venus 14y ago
  I see from other comments you're from non-London-area England, so excuse my comment - I was thinking of the US or Australia, where demand for programmers could only be described as "red hot". I'd advise your unemployed CS grad friends to come over here (Sydney) for a working holiday; they'll get work within days if they have in-demand skills (web/ios/android).

philwelch 14y ago

I guess it must depend where you live, because there aren't nearly enough programmers to fill job openings where I am, and these jobs already pay more and more every year. It seems like you're in the UK, and outside of London at that--that is a bit rough, but in the US it's a veritable bonanza and the worst that happens is that you'll have to relocate.

heidar 14y ago
As someone who relocated to the UK I would pack up tomorrow for a well paying and fairly interesting job. The numbers discussed in the comments on this post seem astronomical to someone living in the UK (outside London) and on top of that you don't pay as much tax, if any at all!

knowaveragejoe 14y ago

I don't see this at all. There are plenty of openings in every major city, the distinction is the majority of them are from companies that treat programming as an after-thought, and thus you won't even get in the door if you don't have a degree or some absurd experience requirement because HR is screening applicants instead of a technical person. I work in DC, which arguably has one of the more vibrant tech scenes in the country outside of SF, NYC and Chicago. With that said, my managers have told me they spent months looking, both themselves and through recruiters, without finding any qualified candidates. I don't have a college degree and I have minimal professional experience in the field(internship). I don't even have much of a portfolio. I've been interested in computers since I was ~12, and programming for a bout that long. They hired me because I ask the right kinds of questions and have proven I can solve my own problems for the most part. Now, the pay and the benefits aren't -amazing- like what you'll find from some hot companies, but it's pretty decent, more than enough for a comfortable lifestyle and buying myself some shiny toys every now and then. I would gladly take the lesser pay and much more relaxed work environment over the "rockstar programmer" falsehood that would likely be projected on me at a higher paying company.