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Elon Musk: Vegetarians only on Mars colony
- dagw 14y agoI wonder what his reasoning for such a requirement is. Does he think that a non-vegetarian won't be able to adapt to the meat-free diet a Mars colony will probably require without several years of 'practice' or is it some bizarre ideological stance? The whole thing sounds strange to me, but since I can't find the original quote or transcript, maybe he said something different.
- Tichy 14y agoPerhaps he is worried about cannibalism?
- sigzero 14y agoNah, because given the right circumstances (i.e starving to death)...anyone can become that.
- btilly 14y agoHe probably said something like, "Of course you'll have to be vegetarian." Which then got blown up.
- kristofferR 14y agoIf you have a meat-free diet you are vegetarian, so he probably meant that meat won't be availible on Mars for the settlers for quite some time and that everyone who goes have to expect a vegetarian diet.
- lmm 14y agoRequiring people to not eat meat (or at least eat very little meat) makes sense. Requiring them to do so for a couple of years before takeoff to prepare (and make sure they're happy with that diet) makes sense too. But recruiting only people who are already vegetarians seems counterproductive.
- mtgx 14y agoProbably more like vegans.
- adaml_623 14y agoHe twittered: 'Recent articles in the press have said that I think Mars is for veggies only. Not so! Am in favor of freedom of diet.' But now he seems to have deleted that tweet: strange. (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/289281074188668928 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/289281074188668928).
- loceng 14y agoPeople are going to misinterpret that to shit in order to cater to their own beliefs.
- BESebastian 14y agoIf there's no meat then what's the point of even going to Mars.
- vidarh 14y agoGetting rich by smuggling bacon.
- ed209 14y agoI wonder if that also excludes in vitro meat? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat
- prawks 14y agoI was wondering this as well. Though I've also wondered about the nutritional contents of test-tube meat.
- securingsincity 14y agoI imagine this is to reduce the complexity of the mission. It would be hard enough to support a colony of humans along with a colony of chickens, roosters, goats, pigs and cows would complicate the situation. Farming animals does have some sustainability concerns and from an ideological standpoint he may want to be as close to methane and carbon neutral as possible.
- dagw 14y agoThere is a significant difference between "being vegetarian" and accepting that you'll have to live on a vegetarian diet due to practical logistical reasons. If I was going, I'd have no problem accepting that there obviously won't be any raising of livestock on Mars, but my last meal on earth would still be a steak.
- securingsincity 14y agoCouldn't agree more. It's Mars I'll take the bad with the unbelievably cool.
- Dove 14y ago"... plans to send just a small group of people who would build a transparent dome that could be pressurized so that they could farm on Martian soil . . ." What? Can you do that?
- Lambdanaut 14y agoYou absolutely can. Martian soil is surprisingly very rich, even by Earth's standards.
- PedroCandeias 14y agoWell, yes, though admittedly not without some help: http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-08/martian-farms-would-need-less-water-and-fewer-fertilizers-according-new-study http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-08/martian-farms-...
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- tylee78 14y agoI highly recommend Robert Zubrin's "The Case for Mars" - you'll be surprised what else is possible on Mars with current technology: http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-Planet/dp/145160811X http://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Mars-Settle-Planet/dp/1451608...
- stcredzero 14y agoAlso, TA Heppenheimer's Colonies in Space has a dandy compilation chapter on research on agriculture in enclosed environments. ("Up on the farm") http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap09.html http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap0... Most of what's talked about in that chapter will also be possible on Mars.
- jsmcgd 14y agoIt's a pity that before we've even begun creating a new civilization, we've started issuing dictates. I really hope that this policy is purely for pragmatic reasons and not the personal pollitics/ideology of one person being put upon others.
- w1ntermute 14y ago> in line with his own personal ideologies Sounds like this is at least partially personal. However, there are practical reasons for this too.
- JshWright 14y agoThis is simply a matter of practicality. It has nothing to do with idealogy, it's simply a fact that anyone going to live on Mars (a least in the beginning) will need to become a vegetarian if they aren't one already. Eating vegetarian is dramatically more efficient, energy wise (I'm not trying to be a vegetarian apologist here, I am quite omnivorous myself, it's just a statement of fact), and any martian colony simply won't have the resources to waste on meat. Meat is a luxury.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- Lambdanaut 14y agoThis is pretty much a given. Livestock takes exponentially more energy to raise than it takes to harvest a comparable amount of plant produce. Goats eat a lot, and they chew on everything. Mushrooms are a good choice as a staple food for a Martian colony because they can grow entirely on agricultural byproducts, with no need for any of the sure-to-be precious solar energy. You can really just put them in a dark closet with some corn husks and let them do their thing.
- andreasvc 14y agoMushrooms contain little energy so by definition they cannot be a staple food.
- Irregardless 14y agoEnergy isn't the only consideration, you also have to think about nutrients. Animal proteins have all the amino acids we need, but the same can't be said of any plant. Essential nutrients like Iron, Calcium and Zinc are also difficult to come by for vegetarians. Vitamin B12 can't even be found naturally in non-meat foods, and it's necessary for our bodies to create red blood cells. Getting the energey and nutrients and having a variety of foods to choose from (so you're not eating the same thing every meal of every day) is not an easy task for vegetarians. Hopefully we'll have supplements that can compensate for that in 15 years, but it's not exactly something you can rely on when planning something of this scale.
- raverbashing 14y agoYou can combine different vegetable sources to obtain all aminoacids needed (or maybe have a transgenic methionine producing soy plant Iron, Calcium and Zinc are easy to obtain. Vitamin B12 is harder, people would need supplements.
- thejteam 14y agoWhen the supplements run out would they need to get a new shipment from earth?
- seanalltogether 14y agoIs it possible to create farms without bugs? And if there's bugs do we need rodents to keep them in check? And with rodents running around do we need prey animals to thin the numbers, and would those prey animals be delicious to eat?
- DanBC 14y agoBe interesting to do some research on the food people eat and what happens. The only thing I'd be gently worried about would be Omega 3 fatty acids - maybe linseed, or maybe that's something they drag out of the gravity well.
- jerf 14y agoIf ever there was a call for some GMO, here it is. And fortunately this is the sort of thing that's within our reach.
- Irregardless 14y agoI doubt Musk would use his space colony as a means of enforcing his personal moral code, but I also suspect the diversity of plants required for a healthy vegetarian diet may be just as difficult to maintain on mars as livestock, so it would be very interesting to hear the full story. In any case, there's no explanation of his motivation, and the statement is false according to this article that links to a (now deleted) tweet from Musk: http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/01/10/good-news-elon-musk-will-let-you-eat-meat-on-mars/ http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/01/10/good-news-elon-musk...
- DanBC 14y ago> but I also suspect the diversity of plants required for a healthy vegetarian diet may be just as difficult to maintain as livestock, People need protein, energy, vitamins, and minerals. Getting calories from meat is inefficient; you need to feed the animal many more calories than you'll get back. Meat is reasonably good source of protein. Getting protein from vegetables means mixing types to get the range of amino acids. There's a gentle concern about the lack of omega fatty acids in some vegetarian diets. You get some fat soluble vitamins from meat and dairy products. Meat is a good source of iron. Milk is a good source of calcium. But both of those can be found in vegetable products too. tl:dr You need to grow vegetables anyway; meat is really inefficient; why waste energy growing feedcrops for animals (and for the people looking after the animals, and the people looking after the feedcrops) when you can jsut grow feedcrops for people.
- Irregardless 14y ago> Getting calories from meat is inefficient You're taking the model of an industrialized first-world nation with 300 million+ people and applying it to a tiny space colony. Calling that apples vs. oranges would be an understatement. If you disagree, tell me this: How many 30,000 lb. John Deere combines do you think will be sent with the first settlers?
- Kim_Bruning 14y agoThe model is the same everywhere. We canna break the laws of (bio)physics, Jim.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- laurentoget 14y agoI found a more interesting tidbits: Quoted: A ticket to the colony would cost $500,000—with a goal of raising $40 billion—and visitors would be sent into space on a rocket powered by liquid oxygen and methane. "The ticket price needs to be low enough that most people in advanced countries, in their mid-forties or something like that, could put together enough money to make the trip," Given that median wealth per family when head of household is 45-54 is ~160k this is a peculiar definition of the word 'most'.
- pavel_lishin 14y agoCan you quote that quote in a different way? It's literally invisible for me: http://i.imgur.com/6ZM6d.png http://i.imgur.com/6ZM6d.png
- wahnfrieden 14y ago"The ticket price needs to be low enough that most people in advanced countries, in their mid-forties or something like that, could put together enough money to make the trip,"
- michael_nielsen 14y agoMany people of that age already put together that much money (or close to it) --- to buy real estate. I can certainly imagine people taking out mortgages to go to Mars.
- podperson 14y agoNo-one will loan people money to go to Mars ;-)
- stcredzero 14y agoGiven that labor on Mars will be scarce, Mars colonists are likely to make high 6-figure incomes. Also, given the opportunities to establish new businesses on a new world, many are likely to become multi-billionaires.
- sadlyNess 14y agoso we can start farming kyrt...and psycho-probbing spatio-analysts...[1] if only Asimov was around to see these events start to unfold. [1] Currents of Space - Isaac Asimov
- newbie12 14y agoAnd the Mars Colony has its first political issue.
- brador 14y agoWhy are we still eating cellular food? Is anyone working on alternative nourishment?
- hudell 14y agoHis own words: "Recent Articles in the press have said that I think Mars is for veggies only. Not so! Am in favor of freedom of diet"
- dkhenry 14y agoImmediately I think this is silly. While There is an argument to be made for health benefits or moral upidityness of being a Vegetarian, it is stupid to rule out the benefits a fully working ecosystem gives you in terms of resource availability and renewability. Animals are good for more then just eating !
- Kim_Bruning 14y agoYou need (rule-of-thumb) 10* as much energy (solar/light input) or 10* the amount of land for a none-vegetarian diet. In an early off-world colony, that might be prohibitively expensive.
- dkhenry 14y agoThis is not just about providing food. Thats my whole point. You may be able to provide sustance with less ground/light, but what about keeping the soil fertle ? How about dealing with plant waste ? What do you do with table scraps ? What do you do with human waste ? You could say we will ship out machines and supplies to take care of all the _other_ stuff that you need to live. It is true you can have other methods to deal with some of the additional requirements of life, but animals are really good at fulfilling some roles. Additionally they are tasty.
- podperson 14y agoThis will make a great basis for an SF story -- most likely a comedy. The kinds of people who can front $500k for an exercise like this will generally be quite rich. If it's a one-way trip (or even if they're seriously contemplating immigration) rich people will want to liquidate assets and turn them into some kind of competitive advantage on Mars, but there's this really expensive cargo pipe (presumably with a waiting list), so I can see the 50 year old single software engineer with Aspberger's sitting on $750k in investments buying a ticket (and selling $500k of stocks to do so) and then discovering that some maverick billionaire wants to buy his ticket for $5M so he can bring over a suitcase of paté de foie gras and single malt Scotch, an antique stock ticker, and a catamite. Here's a funnier idea -- offer shipment to Mars as an alternative to the appeals process for death penalty cases. It would save us money, and make for an awesome Nicholas Cage vehicle. This is how you establish a colony, dammit!
- bentcorner 14y ago> Here's a funnier idea -- offer shipment to Mars as an alternative to the appeals process for death penalty cases. It would save us money, and make for an awesome Nicholas Cage vehicle. This is how you establish a colony, dammit! Just what we need. A planetful of pissed off inmates who, with the arrival of the mad genius scientist, invent teleportation and attack the leader of the free world, and almost succeed at doing so if it weren't for the ex-seal cop who just wants to get home to his kids (and he also happens to reconnect with his wife who had separated with him, but now realizes that he was distant only because it kept them safe).
- ddw 14y ago> and he also happens to reconnect with his wife who had separated with him, but now realizes that he was distant only because it kept them safe My favorite aspect of the action hero that is divorced. It's not because he did anything _bad_, he just wasn't around enough. See also: action hero that has to go to jail because he killed a guy, but it was actually only in self defense.
- stcredzero 14y ago
- bane 14y agoIn other words, meat will become an ultra-luxury food stuff -- with people paying some delta for illegal raised local meat vs. frozen meat flown in from Earth. Local cultural fads would probably determine if stringy local small mammal meat or freezer burned brisket would go for more.
- nicholassmith 14y agoOne view point: it's a waste of space and fuel to launch livestock with humans to a colony in the early days. Seeds and enough reserves to keep going would take up much less space. Another view point: livestock isn't just useful for food, cultures and civilisations have been turning livestock into food, clothing, tools and other resources for centuries. It could be useful. I know some people find it abhorrent we exploit animals as resources (not me personally), but Musk seems like a pragmatist. If it makes sense to send a bunch of meat loving carnivores to Mars with a ship hold full of livestock then that'll be the option. On the upside, if they're using a liquid oxygen/methane rich mixture for the fuel they'd have a natural source of methane by having livestock.
- stcredzero 14y agoGiven power and hydrogen, methane can be efficiently produced on Mars using the Sabatier reaction. Even getting the hydrogen by electrolysis of local water, this should be many times more efficient than raising pigs to get methane from their excrement.
- nicholassmith 14y agoIt was more tongue in cheek than an actual valid idea. Does make me wonder how easy it would be for them to build the colony into a waystation with fuel refineries and fuel refilling.
- stcredzero 14y agoActually, most schemes for missions to Mars involve some kind of in-situ fuel manufacture. It's already been demonstrated, and the technology actually is from the industrial revolution.
- bunderbunder 14y agoI suspect it's not about transportation costs so much as ecology. The amount of biomass available to animals at the top of the food pyramid is inversely proportional to the height of the pyramid. Energy and nutrients would be an extremely precious resource in a Mars colony that has to do all its farming under domes. Far too precious to waste on cattle. It's true that human cultures have historically relied on animals to convert inedible biomass into edible biomass, or to produce other materials. But those cultures didn't have all sorts of modern technologies such as hydroponics, engineered microbes, or chemical labs. And unlike the area where human cultures first developed, Mars isn't exactly known for its large quantities of available pasture land just sitting around waiting for grazing.
- stcredzero 14y agotldr - By going vegetarian at first, the Mars colony accumulates usable biomass faster. (Also, the "Up on the Farm" chapter of this book is a good background read for this discussion: http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap09.html http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap0... ) The thing to remember here, is that, as Feynmann says, plants make themselves out of air! < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1pIYI5JQLE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1pIYI5JQLE > Go back to your basic biology education and remember the formula for photosynthesis. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis > So a Mars colony's farms are basically chemical solar collectors doing two things: 1) providing chemical energy to the colonists (food) and 2) Converting Martian CO2 and water into biomass. If you introduce too many warm blooded animals into the system, a lot of your energy input gets wasted as livestock body heat. So by going vegetarian at first, the Mars colony accumulates usable biomass faster. The faster you accumulate biomass, the faster you can make more biomass. This is also the principle behind the tactic of mostly making construction vehicles at first in Starcraft, or concentrating early on customer acquisition in a startup.
- commentzorro 14y agoShow HN: My Martian City. I'm starting a business to bring people to Mars for half the price of Mr. Musk's. Reserve your tickets now. We go in about 15 years. The savings come from not having to grow our own food and not having to build a pressurized dome. Our city will be underground! It will be called Morlock and the citizens will be ...
- codex 14y agoOne reason for a vegetarian diet on Mars is solar efficiency: the sun is only 44% as strong, which makes raising meat less practical. Meat takes a lot of energy, Another reason is the higher ambient radiation levels on Mars, which plants are more resilient to than animals. Animals would likely have a higher cancer rate than here on Earth, and who wants to eat a cancerous steak? Not appetizing.