6 ms·

I'll balance your anecdote with my own: I too know several who are living at home that have degrees. Yes, we'll always need STEM people, but I think you're for

I'll balance your anecdote with my own: I too know several who are living at home that have degrees. Yes, we'll always need STEM people, but I think you're forgetting that STEM is a pretty narrow part of what colleges do. Heck, I've got a buddy who has his degree in Theater. Theater! Why that is a degree option at a university, I have no idea. Not to mention art, comm (which every other person seems to major in), History, English, etc.. These are a little more representative of the "basement" ex-college goers. For non-technical people, I kind of feel like college is a pretty poor investment. Going to a vocational school would probably pay off more in the end.

stdbrouw 14y ago
This may come as a shock, but not everyone goes to college solely in order to improve their career prospects.
- zalzane 14y ago
  Then you're wasting tax dollars and a slot at a school that could be filled with a student who actually needs an education for the field they plan on entering. The devaluation of the college degree is partly because of the gross amount of people who go to college for no reason other than to socialize and enjoy themselves.
  - alexqgb 14y ago
    Uh, that's one possibility. The other possibility is that they're studying something they're truly passionate about, and they aren't focused on how - exactly - the're going to make a living. I know a number of folks who simply fed their curiosity, and still ended up in productive lives. Indeed, the original purpose of an undergraduate degree was to expand one's horizons. Graduate school was the time and place to focus on profession.
    - rsheridan6 14y ago
      The folks you know wouldn't happen to be over 35 or independently wealthy, would they? Tuitions have gone up tremendously in recent years, and following your bliss like it was 1998 would be a disaster now if you didn't have a good job lined up at the end, or at least a trust fund.
  - _delirium 14y ago
    It isn't some recent "devaluation" that the public universities are supposed to be about something other than purely vocational training. When Thomas Jefferson (successfully) advocated setting up the publicly funded University of Virginia, for example, his main aim was to produce a generally educated populace, which had sufficient grounding in all major areas of knowledge—philosophy, science, mathematics, political theory, etc.—to operate a democracy effectively.
_delirium 14y ago
The pay and employment gap between college graduates and non-graduates is actually higher in non-STEM fields, though, which seems to suggest that it's a more important credential if you're non-technical than if you are.
- jedbrown 14y ago
  I don't know what statistic you're referring to, but there are an awful lot of (STEM) fields that have zero jobs if you don't have a degree.
cdcarter 14y ago
Wait, I'm confused. See, I am about to graduate with a degree in theater. After four years of working my ass off academically and professionally, I have made serious connections in my field. I have learned, in the classroom and co-curricular opportunities, industry best practices as well as "real world eventualities." I have received job offers that are 100% due to the fact that I went to the college that I did, based on that school's reputation, that other students of other colleges (or no college) will not get. I think that this was a pretty damn good investment, and I certainly understand why it's a degree option. So that people can learn how to do it.
- derleth 14y ago
  > I certainly understand why it's a degree option. So that people can learn how to do it. So nobody learned how to do it before it was a degree option? What does a degree give you that an apprenticeship wouldn't?
  - cdcarter 14y ago
    As I said, I have opportunities specifically because of the college I attended. A degree has also given me a chance to try other disciplines in the industry than my primary, giving me a chance to learn and try doing scenic art, technical direction, dance shows, and more. The benefits of a liberal arts education span through the actual degree department too.
- hessenwolf 14y ago
  My judgement on Theater degrees stands corrected :). Now, does anybody have something to say on philosophy degrees, or ancient Greek, or does my opinion get to stand on those?
  - gruseom 14y ago
    The idea that philosophy and classics don't belong at universities would have shocked nearly all of the great thinkers of Western history. Universities were supposed to be repositories of learning and civilization, not job trainee factories. That they have become the latter is a sign of decay.
jdp 14y ago
Why are you so dismissive of the humanities? I'm a Computer Science major myself, but I can't fathom how you've come to the conclusion that colleges are vocational schools for STEM subjects.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  He's dismissive of spending so much money for a humanities degree because it's not a wise investment in this day and age. I don't see his statement as having a problem with the humanities themselves.
  - goostavos 14y ago
    Exactly. I was actually a music composition major before I switched to CS. I don't have anything against non-STEM fields. However, one day I looked at how much I was paying for school, how much I stood to earn, and what hard skills I would walk away with when everything was all said and done, and decided switching to my other love, CS, was a much better way to spend my time at uni.
    - hessenwolf 14y ago
      Have you got a good reference on what I can read on music composition? I have tried to find a starting point and failed.
anigbrowl 14y ago
Theater! Why that is a degree option at a university, I have no idea. Aristophanes? Shakespeare? A lot of actors learn their craft ithrough studying theater.
- whazzmaster 14y ago
  Did Aristophanes and Shakespeare need to spend $15,000 to $75,000 per year for 4 to 8 years to learn their craft?
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    No, but it's worthwhile for other people to spend time and effort studying them.
Zigurd 14y ago
_Theater! Why that is a degree option at a university_ Maybe because theater is a big business. Disney makes Broadway shows and Cirque du Soleil is a billion dollar business. But that's beside the point. High quality university education is not trade school. If you have a liberal education you should be ready for a wide range of tasks.
- goostavos 14y ago
  Yikes! I didn't mean to insult all the theater people. However... I don't think you can really compare the overall job prospects of a STEM based major to those of a Theater major. Yes, some people make a lot of money doing Broadway, but on the whole, I'd wager that the bulk of "actors" live on "getting by" wages. How many steady $60k+ gigs are out there for the taking? All that said, I may be the victim of sample bias. Though I was never a thespian, my core group of friends growing up consisted mostly of theater people in high school, and then onto college, I still hung out with many thespians, and now, the bulk of them are.. waiters/"actors." There are a couple that are working near constantly, but for very little money; Maybe a couple of hundred dollars for two weeks of shows.

stdbrouw 14y ago

This may come as a shock, but not everyone goes to college solely in order to improve their career prospects.

zalzane 14y ago
Then you're wasting tax dollars and a slot at a school that could be filled with a student who actually needs an education for the field they plan on entering. The devaluation of the college degree is partly because of the gross amount of people who go to college for no reason other than to socialize and enjoy themselves.
- alexqgb 14y ago
  Uh, that's one possibility. The other possibility is that they're studying something they're truly passionate about, and they aren't focused on how - exactly - the're going to make a living. I know a number of folks who simply fed their curiosity, and still ended up in productive lives. Indeed, the original purpose of an undergraduate degree was to expand one's horizons. Graduate school was the time and place to focus on profession.
  - rsheridan6 14y ago
    The folks you know wouldn't happen to be over 35 or independently wealthy, would they? Tuitions have gone up tremendously in recent years, and following your bliss like it was 1998 would be a disaster now if you didn't have a good job lined up at the end, or at least a trust fund.
- _delirium 14y ago
  It isn't some recent "devaluation" that the public universities are supposed to be about something other than purely vocational training. When Thomas Jefferson (successfully) advocated setting up the publicly funded University of Virginia, for example, his main aim was to produce a generally educated populace, which had sufficient grounding in all major areas of knowledge—philosophy, science, mathematics, political theory, etc.—to operate a democracy effectively.

_delirium 14y ago

The pay and employment gap between college graduates and non-graduates is actually higher in non-STEM fields, though, which seems to suggest that it's a more important credential if you're non-technical than if you are.

jedbrown 14y ago
I don't know what statistic you're referring to, but there are an awful lot of (STEM) fields that have zero jobs if you don't have a degree.

cdcarter 14y ago

Wait, I'm confused. See, I am about to graduate with a degree in theater. After four years of working my ass off academically and professionally, I have made serious connections in my field. I have learned, in the classroom and co-curricular opportunities, industry best practices as well as "real world eventualities." I have received job offers that are 100% due to the fact that I went to the college that I did, based on that school's reputation, that other students of other colleges (or no college) will not get. I think that this was a pretty damn good investment, and I certainly understand why it's a degree option. So that people can learn how to do it.

derleth 14y ago
> I certainly understand why it's a degree option. So that people can learn how to do it. So nobody learned how to do it before it was a degree option? What does a degree give you that an apprenticeship wouldn't?
- cdcarter 14y ago
  As I said, I have opportunities specifically because of the college I attended. A degree has also given me a chance to try other disciplines in the industry than my primary, giving me a chance to learn and try doing scenic art, technical direction, dance shows, and more. The benefits of a liberal arts education span through the actual degree department too.
hessenwolf 14y ago
My judgement on Theater degrees stands corrected :). Now, does anybody have something to say on philosophy degrees, or ancient Greek, or does my opinion get to stand on those?
- gruseom 14y ago
  The idea that philosophy and classics don't belong at universities would have shocked nearly all of the great thinkers of Western history. Universities were supposed to be repositories of learning and civilization, not job trainee factories. That they have become the latter is a sign of decay.

jdp 14y ago

Why are you so dismissive of the humanities? I'm a Computer Science major myself, but I can't fathom how you've come to the conclusion that colleges are vocational schools for STEM subjects.

w1ntermute 14y ago
He's dismissive of spending so much money for a humanities degree because it's not a wise investment in this day and age. I don't see his statement as having a problem with the humanities themselves.
- goostavos 14y ago
  Exactly. I was actually a music composition major before I switched to CS. I don't have anything against non-STEM fields. However, one day I looked at how much I was paying for school, how much I stood to earn, and what hard skills I would walk away with when everything was all said and done, and decided switching to my other love, CS, was a much better way to spend my time at uni.
  - hessenwolf 14y ago
    Have you got a good reference on what I can read on music composition? I have tried to find a starting point and failed.

anigbrowl 14y ago

Theater! Why that is a degree option at a university, I have no idea. Aristophanes? Shakespeare? A lot of actors learn their craft ithrough studying theater.

whazzmaster 14y ago
Did Aristophanes and Shakespeare need to spend $15,000 to $75,000 per year for 4 to 8 years to learn their craft?
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  No, but it's worthwhile for other people to spend time and effort studying them.

Zigurd 14y ago

_Theater! Why that is a degree option at a university_ Maybe because theater is a big business. Disney makes Broadway shows and Cirque du Soleil is a billion dollar business. But that's beside the point. High quality university education is not trade school. If you have a liberal education you should be ready for a wide range of tasks.

goostavos 14y ago
Yikes! I didn't mean to insult all the theater people. However... I don't think you can really compare the overall job prospects of a STEM based major to those of a Theater major. Yes, some people make a lot of money doing Broadway, but on the whole, I'd wager that the bulk of "actors" live on "getting by" wages. How many steady $60k+ gigs are out there for the taking? All that said, I may be the victim of sample bias. Though I was never a thespian, my core group of friends growing up consisted mostly of theater people in high school, and then onto college, I still hung out with many thespians, and now, the bulk of them are.. waiters/"actors." There are a couple that are working near constantly, but for very little money; Maybe a couple of hundred dollars for two weeks of shows.