4 ms·

If this is the case, then maybe PHP's role is a rapid prototyping language which is replaced when the codebase gets to a certain size.

fleitz 14y ago
Generally that size is not more than about 5 files.
- icelancer 14y ago
  Yeah good one. Wordpress is a great example of a huge failure written in PHP over 5 files, right?
  - jessedhillon 14y ago
    Yes, it is a "good one." Wordpress' source looks like spaghetti with shit sauce. The fact that it runs is a testament to something, but not the readability, maintainability, or usability of the code base. Those people wouldn't know a well-designed API if, well, fill in the rest here.
    - icelancer 14y ago
      Good point. Must be why no one uses it.
      - jessedhillon 14y ago
        Whatever else you are, you're not too stupid to see what's wrong with this argument. So the fact that you're forwarding it anyway means you can't make a real point, or you are trolling.
  - flyosity 14y ago
    The codebase of Wordpress is an utterly terrible, offensive, kludgy, hacked-together mess of spaghetti code. The last time I looked at the internals it still lacked a coherent MVC structure. There are big, good things built with PHP, written the right way with solid software engineering principles, but Wordpress is not one of them.
    - icelancer 14y ago
      Yeah, it's very evident in the fact that no one uses it, too. PHP sucks.
      - krichman 14y ago
        If number of users was equivalent to quality you would be correct. But it isn't. Under your argument, Wal-Mart is a purveyor of family heirlooms.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        The number of users is not equivalent to quality. It's an indication of quality. As for quality... No, Wal-Mart isn't a purveyor of items with the qualities of being expensive, extremely limited, and old. Quality is a subjective word, defined by different aspects. Just as I can, with justification, define Apple as a purveyor of low-quality hardware, I can say equally it sells high-quality software.
        mercurial 14y ago
        As you say, quality is defined by a number of factors. I'd say that a good, high-level general purpose programming language should be: - coherent - non-verbose - provide solid high-level abstractions - safe - have a solid standard library - optionally, easy to get started with Of all these qualities, PHP is geared toward "ease of access" with a sprinkling of non-verbosity, and fails mostly or totally in the other categories. Just like the popularity of the Millenium trilogy does not mean Stieg Larsson can write, the popularity of PHP is more an indication of its low barrier to entry (especially combined with widespread hosting support) than anything else.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        > Just like the popularity of the Millenium trilogy does not mean Stieg Larsson can write Technically, it does. =) I'm surprised you wouldn't consider the license a language is released under as one of the factors. Or maybe you do, and you forgot to list it. And therein lies the issue: the number of people are indicative of certain qualities, qualities you might not consider important, or might not weigh as highly as other people. I love erlang, but I'd be hard pressed to use erlang for as many projects as I would like. Not because of failings of the language itself, but because certain qualities it does not possess (ubiquity for one, which affects so many other areas).
  - twodayslate 14y ago
    Or facebook. http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=2356432130 http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=2356432130
    - davidlumley 14y ago
      Facebook _doesn't_ run PHP. A large portion of it is coded in PHP, but it runs C++ through HipHop[1]. Facebook may as well be written in anything that compiles down to C++. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP
      - Joeri 14y ago
        Actually, facebook is moving to a JIT model and getting better performance out of it than the crosscompiled code. http://arstechnica.com/business/2011/12/facebook-looks-to-fix-php-performance-with-hiphop-virtual-machine/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2011/12/facebook-looks-to-fi...
      - anu_gupta 14y ago
        By that standard, anything may as well be written in a language that eventually results in machine code being executed.
      - memla 14y ago
        Actually, the difference between compiled C++ code, and the newest version of PHP with APC/Xcache is not that drastic, but facebook needs to squeeze out every bit of performance so they can to cut down on the number of servers. For what it's worth, PHP 5.4(without APC) performed better than both Python and Ruby on that language shootout page: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/which-programs-are-fastest.php http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/which-programs-a...

fleitz 14y ago

Generally that size is not more than about 5 files.

icelancer 14y ago
Yeah good one. Wordpress is a great example of a huge failure written in PHP over 5 files, right?
- jessedhillon 14y ago
  Yes, it is a "good one." Wordpress' source looks like spaghetti with shit sauce. The fact that it runs is a testament to something, but not the readability, maintainability, or usability of the code base. Those people wouldn't know a well-designed API if, well, fill in the rest here.
  - icelancer 14y ago
    Good point. Must be why no one uses it.
    - jessedhillon 14y ago
      Whatever else you are, you're not too stupid to see what's wrong with this argument. So the fact that you're forwarding it anyway means you can't make a real point, or you are trolling.
- flyosity 14y ago
  The codebase of Wordpress is an utterly terrible, offensive, kludgy, hacked-together mess of spaghetti code. The last time I looked at the internals it still lacked a coherent MVC structure. There are big, good things built with PHP, written the right way with solid software engineering principles, but Wordpress is not one of them.
  - icelancer 14y ago
    Yeah, it's very evident in the fact that no one uses it, too. PHP sucks.
    - krichman 14y ago
      If number of users was equivalent to quality you would be correct. But it isn't. Under your argument, Wal-Mart is a purveyor of family heirlooms.
      - jasonlotito 14y ago
        The number of users is not equivalent to quality. It's an indication of quality. As for quality... No, Wal-Mart isn't a purveyor of items with the qualities of being expensive, extremely limited, and old. Quality is a subjective word, defined by different aspects. Just as I can, with justification, define Apple as a purveyor of low-quality hardware, I can say equally it sells high-quality software.
        mercurial 14y ago
        As you say, quality is defined by a number of factors. I'd say that a good, high-level general purpose programming language should be: - coherent - non-verbose - provide solid high-level abstractions - safe - have a solid standard library - optionally, easy to get started with Of all these qualities, PHP is geared toward "ease of access" with a sprinkling of non-verbosity, and fails mostly or totally in the other categories. Just like the popularity of the Millenium trilogy does not mean Stieg Larsson can write, the popularity of PHP is more an indication of its low barrier to entry (especially combined with widespread hosting support) than anything else.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        > Just like the popularity of the Millenium trilogy does not mean Stieg Larsson can write Technically, it does. =) I'm surprised you wouldn't consider the license a language is released under as one of the factors. Or maybe you do, and you forgot to list it. And therein lies the issue: the number of people are indicative of certain qualities, qualities you might not consider important, or might not weigh as highly as other people. I love erlang, but I'd be hard pressed to use erlang for as many projects as I would like. Not because of failings of the language itself, but because certain qualities it does not possess (ubiquity for one, which affects so many other areas).
- twodayslate 14y ago
  Or facebook. http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=2356432130 http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=2356432130
  - davidlumley 14y ago
    Facebook _doesn't_ run PHP. A large portion of it is coded in PHP, but it runs C++ through HipHop[1]. Facebook may as well be written in anything that compiles down to C++. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP
    - Joeri 14y ago
      Actually, facebook is moving to a JIT model and getting better performance out of it than the crosscompiled code. http://arstechnica.com/business/2011/12/facebook-looks-to-fix-php-performance-with-hiphop-virtual-machine/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2011/12/facebook-looks-to-fi...
    - anu_gupta 14y ago
      By that standard, anything may as well be written in a language that eventually results in machine code being executed.
    - memla 14y ago
      Actually, the difference between compiled C++ code, and the newest version of PHP with APC/Xcache is not that drastic, but facebook needs to squeeze out every bit of performance so they can to cut down on the number of servers. For what it's worth, PHP 5.4(without APC) performed better than both Python and Ruby on that language shootout page: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/which-programs-are-fastest.php http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/which-programs-a...