4 ms·

Somehow every story that somehow, however remotely, mentions credit cards, seems to lure out this sort of smug comments, with people saying a permutation of '<c

by roel_v 14y ago

Somehow every story that somehow, however remotely, mentions credit cards, seems to lure out this sort of smug comments, with people saying a permutation of '<country I live in X> doesn't use credit cards, I'm so much smarter than those Americans'. "Why use Cedit Cards at all?" Maybe because, uh, iDEAL only works for Dutch shops? "I am amazed people would lend to buy a new car." Yeah well apparently you fail at math, because (depending on circumstances) borrowing money to buy a car can be cheaper than paying in cash, because of promotional rates and opportunity cost. Might want to re-think your ideological hangups. (plot twist: I live in the Netherlands and paid cash for all cars I've owned up until now.)

digitalengineer 14y ago
"I'm so much smarter than those Americans'" Your words, not mine, I did not say that. I did ask "Why use Cedit Cards at all?" because it made no sense to me. Thankfully there are some of your countrymen who can tell me why without talking about "ideological hangups" or my math skills. I can only guess by your comments, but it would seem you're not very happy in the Netherlands? I'm probably one of the few Dutch people who bothered (visiting the US and) studying Amercian psychology, history and policy. On the other hand I like to fully own my stuff right away. I care not for the 'discount' I might receive if I lend it. Cash also brings it own benefits (and being Dutch I like to haggle and hate lending).
- roel_v 14y ago
  "it might be worth familiarizing yourself with the kind of behavior that is accepted and expected here." True, you didn't explicitly say it, but your words did imply it. While we're being pedantic, I didn't say you said so either, I just said you said a permutation of it, which you did. "I can only guess by your comments, but it would seem you're not very happy in the Netherlands?" Oh I'm mostly happy right now, and the Netherlands is one of the best countries for me to live in right now. But just because I'm fairly content with something doesn't mean that I can't identify any faults with it - actually, I could name a whole list of things I dislike about the Netherlands and Dutch culture in general, yet I still choose to stay here (I guess relevant: while Belgian by nationality, I have a Dutch wife, was born from a Dutch mother and Belgian father and have lived in the Netherlands for 10+ years. I basically asymptotically approach being 'real' Dutch, so to speak, and I could list just as many things I dislike about Belgium as I could about the Netherlands - more, actually, hence me living where I do). "I care not for the 'discount' I might receive if I lend it." OK well if you prefer to be irrational wrt your finances, more power to you, but proclaiming some sort of moral superiority because of it is out of line.
raverbashing 14y ago
"Why use Cedit Cards at all?" I found that out when trying to rent a car in the US. And mind you I had a credit card, although with a low limit (like $400 and it was almost there). I also had cash to pay for the whole thing upfront. But trying to pay with cash was as successful as trying to pay with goats.
- btilly 14y ago
  Try not returning your car, and you'll find out why they wanted your credit card. People walk away from a cash deposit more easily than a credit card.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    I understand that I'm just pointing out "not using credit cards" is not an option sometimes. (But the amount they hold on the credit card is small, I think it was around $300, still)
  - Firehed 14y ago
    Which is actually an absurd thing for the rental companies to do, since they a) don't know the credit limit on the card and b) would immediately get a chargeback if they tried to recover anything beyond the actual rental rate. They would fight and have a not totally unreasonable chance of winning the chargeback, but the reality is they'd be far better off chasing you down with collections agencies.
    - raverbashing 14y ago
      They don't know the limit but they can try to put a hold and the CC company approves it or not.
    - btilly 14y ago
      For educated thieves, sure. But it is enough to deter a lot of people who otherwise might get tempted.
mryan 14y ago
roel_v, you have attributed a few statements to digitalengineer's post that were not in fact there. " permutation of '<country I live in X> doesn't use credit cards, I'm so much smarter than those Americans'." He just said that he hardly ever uses credit cards, and didn't make any sweeping statements about either the Netherlands or the US. "Yeah well apparently you fail at math, because" I'm not sure if you are aware (perhaps it was unintentional) but your reply is agressive. This sort of baseless personal agression is not welcome at HN - it might be worth familiarizing yourself with the kind of behavior that is accepted and expected here. It seems a bit strange to react so aggressively and personally to what was a benign comment. It seems even stranger when you consider the OP didn't even mention some of the points you are berating him with - in fact, your post reminds me of Clint Eastwood addressing an empty chair at the Republican conference last year. Back on topic - I can't wait until there is some kind of global iDEAL system, it is so much more convenient than credit cards. I know Germany and Poland both have similar systems - hopefully the UK/US will introduce something similar too. I'm a British expat in NL, perhaps this has been introduced in the UK since I left.
- andycroll 14y ago
  You're looking for https://gocardless.com/ https://gocardless.com/ who I'm pretty sure are a YC company.
- jcrites 14y ago
  The OP said: "I hate living on credit as do most of my countrymen." That is a sweeping statement. I agree with roel_v that the tone seemed smug.
- roel_v 14y ago
  I just wrote a long, pompous post in reply to another comment in this thread, but luckily I managed to restrain myself from clicking 'reply' so I'm going to try to be shorter this time (no promises on whether I'll succeed): "and didn't make any sweeping statements about either the Netherlands or the US" Well I disagree, there was definitely an assuming undertone in the post. I guess we can go 'did so/did not' on this one, but instead let's agree to disagree. "but your reply is agressive" Oh yeah, that was intentional, because I felt angry at the post, and in a way that I feel vindicates an aggressive attempt to restrain posts like the one we're talking about. Whether or not making aggressive posts on the internet serves that purpose is another question, although I guess the answer is "no, plus it makes you look like a douche" ('you', in this case, being me, just to make sure I'm being clear ;) ) "it might be worth familiarizing yourself with the kind of behavior that is accepted and expected here." Sorry to pull that card on you, but I've been posting here quite a bit longer than you have, and lurking long time before that - and I long for the days where the type of comment like we're talking about now wouldn't have been posted at all, or the days just after those, where that type of comment would have (rightfully) been down voted into near-unintelligible grey right with the 'LOL', 'me too' and 'ur a faggot' posts. Sadly, those days seem to be long gone, and irrational ideologies seem to have become an accepted basis for posts. "It seems even stranger when you consider the OP didn't even mention some of the points you are berating him with" Not sure what you mean specifically - although to be fair, I did cover my ass by not berating him directly, and instead cowering behind a generalization of unspecified 'other' posts, only indicating that his 'falls in that general class'. Still I stand behind my point that my understanding of implied statements is completely in line with the content of my reply. "Back on topic - I can't wait until there is some kind of global iDEAL system, it is so much more convenient than credit cards." How so? Look, I use iDEAL myself (I used it 3 times just yesterday, even), and like it in the cases where it works, but two months ago I rented a car in a New Zealand airport terminal from a guy who had his whole office in his backpack (you know, the old-fashioned stencil paper credit card processing machine). How would that work with a direct debit system? I paid with credit cards in remote villages in Peru and I can pay or make reservations across the world with credit cards on the phone by just passing them my CC number. Furthermore, I have never paid a cent in interest charges on a credit card, payments are done in full, automatically, from my bank account. I'm not sure what the aversion against credit cards is, it's incredibly useful in many situations. I'd be perfectly happy traveling the world with just a Visa card (provided I can withdraw some cash locally in some places...), I have yet to see anything remotely as convenient as that. I paid more for withdrawing cash with my Maestro card in Spain last summer as I would have had I just paid for everything with my credit card FFS! Here, let me throw in some more ranting against my country: you know why merchants don't accept credit cards in the Netherlands? Because it costs money, and the merchant mentality here is not 'the customer is always right and his convenience is something I need to think of', but 'I need to make sure I get paid, and as much as possible'. Merchants (not only online, I'd even say 'less so online') think of themselves much more as superiors to customers than those in more customer-oriented markets. There is a reason that 'boter bij de vis' doesn't have a direct similar construct in other languages such as English and Frech (that I know of) (it means: pay directly when items are received, no credit allowed). It probably also stems from the Protestant ethic: credit is a sin. Which I think is an even more daft reason to be adverse of credit. (so it looks like I didn't manage to restrain myself after all - so be it)

by roel_v 14y ago

digitalengineer 14y ago

"I'm so much smarter than those Americans'" Your words, not mine, I did not say that. I did ask "Why use Cedit Cards at all?" because it made no sense to me. Thankfully there are some of your countrymen who can tell me why without talking about "ideological hangups" or my math skills. I can only guess by your comments, but it would seem you're not very happy in the Netherlands? I'm probably one of the few Dutch people who bothered (visiting the US and) studying Amercian psychology, history and policy. On the other hand I like to fully own my stuff right away. I care not for the 'discount' I might receive if I lend it. Cash also brings it own benefits (and being Dutch I like to haggle and hate lending).

roel_v 14y ago
"it might be worth familiarizing yourself with the kind of behavior that is accepted and expected here." True, you didn't explicitly say it, but your words did imply it. While we're being pedantic, I didn't say you said so either, I just said you said a permutation of it, which you did. "I can only guess by your comments, but it would seem you're not very happy in the Netherlands?" Oh I'm mostly happy right now, and the Netherlands is one of the best countries for me to live in right now. But just because I'm fairly content with something doesn't mean that I can't identify any faults with it - actually, I could name a whole list of things I dislike about the Netherlands and Dutch culture in general, yet I still choose to stay here (I guess relevant: while Belgian by nationality, I have a Dutch wife, was born from a Dutch mother and Belgian father and have lived in the Netherlands for 10+ years. I basically asymptotically approach being 'real' Dutch, so to speak, and I could list just as many things I dislike about Belgium as I could about the Netherlands - more, actually, hence me living where I do). "I care not for the 'discount' I might receive if I lend it." OK well if you prefer to be irrational wrt your finances, more power to you, but proclaiming some sort of moral superiority because of it is out of line.

raverbashing 14y ago

"Why use Cedit Cards at all?" I found that out when trying to rent a car in the US. And mind you I had a credit card, although with a low limit (like $400 and it was almost there). I also had cash to pay for the whole thing upfront. But trying to pay with cash was as successful as trying to pay with goats.

btilly 14y ago
Try not returning your car, and you'll find out why they wanted your credit card. People walk away from a cash deposit more easily than a credit card.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  I understand that I'm just pointing out "not using credit cards" is not an option sometimes. (But the amount they hold on the credit card is small, I think it was around $300, still)
- Firehed 14y ago
  Which is actually an absurd thing for the rental companies to do, since they a) don't know the credit limit on the card and b) would immediately get a chargeback if they tried to recover anything beyond the actual rental rate. They would fight and have a not totally unreasonable chance of winning the chargeback, but the reality is they'd be far better off chasing you down with collections agencies.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    They don't know the limit but they can try to put a hold and the CC company approves it or not.
  - btilly 14y ago
    For educated thieves, sure. But it is enough to deter a lot of people who otherwise might get tempted.

mryan 14y ago

roel_v, you have attributed a few statements to digitalengineer's post that were not in fact there. " permutation of '<country I live in X> doesn't use credit cards, I'm so much smarter than those Americans'." He just said that he hardly ever uses credit cards, and didn't make any sweeping statements about either the Netherlands or the US. "Yeah well apparently you fail at math, because" I'm not sure if you are aware (perhaps it was unintentional) but your reply is agressive. This sort of baseless personal agression is not welcome at HN - it might be worth familiarizing yourself with the kind of behavior that is accepted and expected here. It seems a bit strange to react so aggressively and personally to what was a benign comment. It seems even stranger when you consider the OP didn't even mention some of the points you are berating him with - in fact, your post reminds me of Clint Eastwood addressing an empty chair at the Republican conference last year. Back on topic - I can't wait until there is some kind of global iDEAL system, it is so much more convenient than credit cards. I know Germany and Poland both have similar systems - hopefully the UK/US will introduce something similar too. I'm a British expat in NL, perhaps this has been introduced in the UK since I left.

andycroll 14y ago
You're looking for https://gocardless.com/ https://gocardless.com/ who I'm pretty sure are a YC company.
jcrites 14y ago
The OP said: "I hate living on credit as do most of my countrymen." That is a sweeping statement. I agree with roel_v that the tone seemed smug.
roel_v 14y ago
I just wrote a long, pompous post in reply to another comment in this thread, but luckily I managed to restrain myself from clicking 'reply' so I'm going to try to be shorter this time (no promises on whether I'll succeed): "and didn't make any sweeping statements about either the Netherlands or the US" Well I disagree, there was definitely an assuming undertone in the post. I guess we can go 'did so/did not' on this one, but instead let's agree to disagree. "but your reply is agressive" Oh yeah, that was intentional, because I felt angry at the post, and in a way that I feel vindicates an aggressive attempt to restrain posts like the one we're talking about. Whether or not making aggressive posts on the internet serves that purpose is another question, although I guess the answer is "no, plus it makes you look like a douche" ('you', in this case, being me, just to make sure I'm being clear ;) ) "it might be worth familiarizing yourself with the kind of behavior that is accepted and expected here." Sorry to pull that card on you, but I've been posting here quite a bit longer than you have, and lurking long time before that - and I long for the days where the type of comment like we're talking about now wouldn't have been posted at all, or the days just after those, where that type of comment would have (rightfully) been down voted into near-unintelligible grey right with the 'LOL', 'me too' and 'ur a faggot' posts. Sadly, those days seem to be long gone, and irrational ideologies seem to have become an accepted basis for posts. "It seems even stranger when you consider the OP didn't even mention some of the points you are berating him with" Not sure what you mean specifically - although to be fair, I did cover my ass by not berating him directly, and instead cowering behind a generalization of unspecified 'other' posts, only indicating that his 'falls in that general class'. Still I stand behind my point that my understanding of implied statements is completely in line with the content of my reply. "Back on topic - I can't wait until there is some kind of global iDEAL system, it is so much more convenient than credit cards." How so? Look, I use iDEAL myself (I used it 3 times just yesterday, even), and like it in the cases where it works, but two months ago I rented a car in a New Zealand airport terminal from a guy who had his whole office in his backpack (you know, the old-fashioned stencil paper credit card processing machine). How would that work with a direct debit system? I paid with credit cards in remote villages in Peru and I can pay or make reservations across the world with credit cards on the phone by just passing them my CC number. Furthermore, I have never paid a cent in interest charges on a credit card, payments are done in full, automatically, from my bank account. I'm not sure what the aversion against credit cards is, it's incredibly useful in many situations. I'd be perfectly happy traveling the world with just a Visa card (provided I can withdraw some cash locally in some places...), I have yet to see anything remotely as convenient as that. I paid more for withdrawing cash with my Maestro card in Spain last summer as I would have had I just paid for everything with my credit card FFS! Here, let me throw in some more ranting against my country: you know why merchants don't accept credit cards in the Netherlands? Because it costs money, and the merchant mentality here is not 'the customer is always right and his convenience is something I need to think of', but 'I need to make sure I get paid, and as much as possible'. Merchants (not only online, I'd even say 'less so online') think of themselves much more as superiors to customers than those in more customer-oriented markets. There is a reason that 'boter bij de vis' doesn't have a direct similar construct in other languages such as English and Frech (that I know of) (it means: pay directly when items are received, no credit allowed). It probably also stems from the Protestant ethic: credit is a sin. Which I think is an even more daft reason to be adverse of credit. (so it looks like I didn't manage to restrain myself after all - so be it)