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I've said for a long time the basic problem in the States isn't capitalism vs. socialism or rich vs. poor, but rather educated vs. uneducated. I think I'm not

by acabal 14y ago

I've said for a long time the basic problem in the States isn't capitalism vs. socialism or rich vs. poor, but rather educated vs. uneducated. I think I'm not being out of line to claim that on the average an American's high-school-level education is pretty poor. People who are victims of poor education don't know history (which is rich in examples of past policy), can't think critically or reason about potential outcomes, and don't know to sometimes be healthily skeptical of things they're told. Those kinds of people will never be able to vote in their best interests because they have no idea what their interests even are, because they're easily manipulated, and because they're incapable of reasoning critically about even the most basic policy decisions. That's how you wind up with people holding up picket signs saying "Obama=socialism" on one side and "Keep your hands off my Medicare" on the other. The problem is basic education.

bhntr3 14y ago
> I think I'm not being out of line to claim that on the average an American's high-school-level education is pretty poor. The thing is that it's not really that true. Here's a typical article on Huffington Post bemoaning the American education system: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/us-students-still-lag-beh_n_1695516.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/us-students-still-l... But if you read it carefully, the truth is that we're not getting worse. We're just not getting better as fast as others. We used to be the best. Now we're in the middle. We're not worse than we were 60 years ago. We're better. Other countries have just gotten better much faster. Which is a trend that applies to a lot in America these days. Education IS improving. So, I think anything that tries to relate an absolute decline to "the failure of our schools" is wrong. Maybe that's not your point though. The thing is that what you describe at the beginning of your post is actually typically human. Experiments have shown we all have cognitive biases that make us bad at "being skeptical" and "reasoning about potential outcomes" or using past examples to predict future events (even when we're well educated.) Humans are just not good at doing that stuff. We can overcome our biases but that's not really taught in school. You can read about a lot of it at http://lesswrong.com/ http://lesswrong.com/ So I don't think it's that helpful to bundle up people who struggle with cognitive biases as "Those kinds of people" There's a chance that "our kind of people", aka people who read hacker news, are much better at being rational but it's probably because we've taught ourselves to think like computers! Because that's a big part of what being a hacker is.
- acabal 14y ago
  I'm not saying education is better or worse than in the past, just that (in general) it's not up to the task of producing an electorate capable of voting rationally. After all, it's often people of retirement age you see holding those anti-Obamacare signs. Their basic education did happen 60-odd years ago and it clearly failed them.
jeffdavis 14y ago
"Those kinds of people will never be able to vote in their best interests" What happened to voting in the interests of the entire population?
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  Nobody knows for certain what the interests of the entire population are; voting is a mechanism for groping towards identifying those interests.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    But there's a big difference in thought process between "I think voting this way is best for everyone" and "I think my benefits will go up if I vote this way".
- acabal 14y ago
  I think a person's best interest is often (not always!) the same as the general interest. Education comes in to play when a person is educated enough to be able to rationally reason that case. For example, "I have a perfectly good well on my property, but I understand that contributing to a public water supply system may benefit me in the long run, because maybe my well will go dry." Or maybe, "I have a well, but contributing to a public water system will increase commerce in the area which will directly benefit me." Obviously that's not always going to be the case, and people can and will reason incorrectly, but the important part is that a person is capable of applying some modicum of thought instead of just "The rent is too damn high" or "Obama is a communist, hang him for treason."

by acabal 14y ago

bhntr3 14y ago

> I think I'm not being out of line to claim that on the average an American's high-school-level education is pretty poor. The thing is that it's not really that true. Here's a typical article on Huffington Post bemoaning the American education system: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/us-students-still-lag-beh_n_1695516.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/us-students-still-l... But if you read it carefully, the truth is that we're not getting worse. We're just not getting better as fast as others. We used to be the best. Now we're in the middle. We're not worse than we were 60 years ago. We're better. Other countries have just gotten better much faster. Which is a trend that applies to a lot in America these days. Education IS improving. So, I think anything that tries to relate an absolute decline to "the failure of our schools" is wrong. Maybe that's not your point though. The thing is that what you describe at the beginning of your post is actually typically human. Experiments have shown we all have cognitive biases that make us bad at "being skeptical" and "reasoning about potential outcomes" or using past examples to predict future events (even when we're well educated.) Humans are just not good at doing that stuff. We can overcome our biases but that's not really taught in school. You can read about a lot of it at http://lesswrong.com/ http://lesswrong.com/ So I don't think it's that helpful to bundle up people who struggle with cognitive biases as "Those kinds of people" There's a chance that "our kind of people", aka people who read hacker news, are much better at being rational but it's probably because we've taught ourselves to think like computers! Because that's a big part of what being a hacker is.

acabal 14y ago
I'm not saying education is better or worse than in the past, just that (in general) it's not up to the task of producing an electorate capable of voting rationally. After all, it's often people of retirement age you see holding those anti-Obamacare signs. Their basic education did happen 60-odd years ago and it clearly failed them.

jeffdavis 14y ago

"Those kinds of people will never be able to vote in their best interests" What happened to voting in the interests of the entire population?

anigbrowl 14y ago
Nobody knows for certain what the interests of the entire population are; voting is a mechanism for groping towards identifying those interests.
- tsotha 14y ago
  But there's a big difference in thought process between "I think voting this way is best for everyone" and "I think my benefits will go up if I vote this way".
acabal 14y ago
I think a person's best interest is often (not always!) the same as the general interest. Education comes in to play when a person is educated enough to be able to rationally reason that case. For example, "I have a perfectly good well on my property, but I understand that contributing to a public water supply system may benefit me in the long run, because maybe my well will go dry." Or maybe, "I have a well, but contributing to a public water system will increase commerce in the area which will directly benefit me." Obviously that's not always going to be the case, and people can and will reason incorrectly, but the important part is that a person is capable of applying some modicum of thought instead of just "The rent is too damn high" or "Obama is a communist, hang him for treason."