4 ms·

Because socialism or communism works so much better right? People are especially envious of the great freedom people in North Korea are enjoying? Same as Cuba

Because socialism or communism works so much better right? People are especially envious of the great freedom people in North Korea are enjoying? Same as Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? (wanna change your currency to another one in Argentina to hedge yourself against a very strong inflation? you can't, because the socialist state won't let you do that) What's next after Karl Marx? That the homophobic racist murderer that was the Che Guevara was correct? The thing that saddens me the most on a forum supposedly made of entrepreneurs trying to create wealth is to see that there are so many people who are still failing for the poisonous words of a corrupt few who would have just loved to rule the earth: be it Kim-Jong Ill or Kim-Karl Marx, it makes me very very scared. The first thing socialists and communists tries to do is to ruin everyone and reinforce the power of the state. I choose freedom. Even if it means bubbles and crises. I prefer that to slavery. "Better dead than red". Thankfully I'm not alone.

rayiner 14y ago
You know, a reactionary living in 19th century might have said "because democracy works so much better right? People are so envious of the great freedom people in France are enjoying." With the memory of the French Revolution fresh in their mind, they probably would have been reasonable to say so.
- maratd 14y ago
  Liberal western-style democracy with open markets has certainly seen its failures. And it has also seen its successes. Pray tell, what successes has communism and radical socialism achieved?
  - scarmig 14y ago
    That's tricky, because it's not so much a question of successes relative to the past (which I assume you'd agree are many) but a question of successes relative to alternative worlds where a capitalist system had developed in those countries. And there's also a question of what counts as communism/radical socialism in your book--China, even now, has far more government involvement in the economy than many Western countries, and even more so under Deng. Does it count? What about Congress-style socialism in India? That said, and emphasizing I have no love of the following countries and think some form of liberal democracy would have worked substantially better... Cuba started from a fairly good baseline, so we shouldn't read too much into it, but it has superior healthcare and education to much of Latin America. The Soviet Union had a couple decades of breakneck economic growth: many economists, perhaps even the majority, expected it to have outgrown the West by the 1980s. This should be discounted somewhat, though, this time because the UK and the USA also rapidly developed at various points in their history. The USSR also excelled at generating a large class of engineers, scientists, and mathematicians, who contributed a large body of knowledge to the world. And it made some pretty good chess players, too, when it wasn't cheating like crazy.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    My point is that if you sat there in 1800 and looked at the track record of democratic/republican revolutions at that time, you'd come to a different conclusion than if you did so in 2012.
mixmastamyk 14y ago
Afraid of ideas and discussing them, eh? You've also thrown together several orthogonal concepts, displaying a lack of understanding common to folks who watch too much corporate television. I'm no lefty, but you make a lousy case.
anigbrowl 14y ago
Reaching for extreme examples at the outset is a sign that something is amiss with your argument.Observing that capitalism might have structural flaws is not a call for the implementation of soviet-style communism, and your ideological tone is debasing the discussion. Please chill out, and show a little more respect to other participants.
Morcane 14y ago
Who cares about freedom when you don't have anything to eat, and hear your children cry because of hunger? It's day-to-day life for millions of people on this planet. First-world talk.
mathieuh 14y ago
Your comparison of North Korea with Marx shows unequivocally that you don't have any clue what you're talking about. It is actually laughable how wrong you are. Maybe you should read some Marx before dismissing something you don't know the first thing about.
ucee054 14y ago
You really can't tell the difference between socialism and communism? socialism = Norway, communism = North Korea So you think Norway and North Korea are identical? Or are you under the delusion that Norway is badly managed? Do you think people get dragged to the Gulag there? You better shut off the Fox News and go read a book.
- mathieuh 14y ago
  Norway is not socialist and North Korea is not communist. Norway is social democratic and North Korea is juche.
  - lostlogin 14y ago
    So much so. The Cuba = communist is somewhat off too. About as off as calling USA a democracy. Anyone can be elected to president. Right?
pyre 14y ago
| Kim-Jong Ill or Kim-Karl Marx I seriously doubt that Karl Marx would have approved of North Korea. Just because someone calls themselves 'Communist' doesn't necessarily mean it's so. There are plenty of dictatorships that call themselves "The Democratic Repubic of X" or something like that. Just because democracy is in the name doesn't make them democratic. (Oddly enough, Marx probably would have approved of the Khmer Rouge. He was really into violent upheaval to transition between forms of government.) | The first thing socialists and communists tries to do is to | ruin everyone and reinforce the power of the state. | | I choose freedom. Even if it means bubbles and crises. | | "Better dead than red". This just seems to be an opinion born of privilege. Would you adhere to "better dead than red" if the death came from starving in the streets (while people born into money like Paris Hilton live it up) rather than some romantic idea of fighting off foreign invaders and living in the hills (i.e. Red Dawn)?

rayiner 14y ago

You know, a reactionary living in 19th century might have said "because democracy works so much better right? People are so envious of the great freedom people in France are enjoying." With the memory of the French Revolution fresh in their mind, they probably would have been reasonable to say so.

maratd 14y ago
Liberal western-style democracy with open markets has certainly seen its failures. And it has also seen its successes. Pray tell, what successes has communism and radical socialism achieved?
- scarmig 14y ago
  That's tricky, because it's not so much a question of successes relative to the past (which I assume you'd agree are many) but a question of successes relative to alternative worlds where a capitalist system had developed in those countries. And there's also a question of what counts as communism/radical socialism in your book--China, even now, has far more government involvement in the economy than many Western countries, and even more so under Deng. Does it count? What about Congress-style socialism in India? That said, and emphasizing I have no love of the following countries and think some form of liberal democracy would have worked substantially better... Cuba started from a fairly good baseline, so we shouldn't read too much into it, but it has superior healthcare and education to much of Latin America. The Soviet Union had a couple decades of breakneck economic growth: many economists, perhaps even the majority, expected it to have outgrown the West by the 1980s. This should be discounted somewhat, though, this time because the UK and the USA also rapidly developed at various points in their history. The USSR also excelled at generating a large class of engineers, scientists, and mathematicians, who contributed a large body of knowledge to the world. And it made some pretty good chess players, too, when it wasn't cheating like crazy.
- rayiner 14y ago
  My point is that if you sat there in 1800 and looked at the track record of democratic/republican revolutions at that time, you'd come to a different conclusion than if you did so in 2012.

mixmastamyk 14y ago

Afraid of ideas and discussing them, eh? You've also thrown together several orthogonal concepts, displaying a lack of understanding common to folks who watch too much corporate television. I'm no lefty, but you make a lousy case.

anigbrowl 14y ago

Reaching for extreme examples at the outset is a sign that something is amiss with your argument.Observing that capitalism might have structural flaws is not a call for the implementation of soviet-style communism, and your ideological tone is debasing the discussion. Please chill out, and show a little more respect to other participants.

Morcane 14y ago

Who cares about freedom when you don't have anything to eat, and hear your children cry because of hunger? It's day-to-day life for millions of people on this planet. First-world talk.

mathieuh 14y ago

Your comparison of North Korea with Marx shows unequivocally that you don't have any clue what you're talking about. It is actually laughable how wrong you are. Maybe you should read some Marx before dismissing something you don't know the first thing about.

ucee054 14y ago

You really can't tell the difference between socialism and communism? socialism = Norway, communism = North Korea So you think Norway and North Korea are identical? Or are you under the delusion that Norway is badly managed? Do you think people get dragged to the Gulag there? You better shut off the Fox News and go read a book.

mathieuh 14y ago
Norway is not socialist and North Korea is not communist. Norway is social democratic and North Korea is juche.
- lostlogin 14y ago
  So much so. The Cuba = communist is somewhat off too. About as off as calling USA a democracy. Anyone can be elected to president. Right?

pyre 14y ago

| Kim-Jong Ill or Kim-Karl Marx I seriously doubt that Karl Marx would have approved of North Korea. Just because someone calls themselves 'Communist' doesn't necessarily mean it's so. There are plenty of dictatorships that call themselves "The Democratic Repubic of X" or something like that. Just because democracy is in the name doesn't make them democratic. (Oddly enough, Marx probably would have approved of the Khmer Rouge. He was really into violent upheaval to transition between forms of government.) | The first thing socialists and communists tries to do is to | ruin everyone and reinforce the power of the state. | | I choose freedom. Even if it means bubbles and crises. | | "Better dead than red". This just seems to be an opinion born of privilege. Would you adhere to "better dead than red" if the death came from starving in the streets (while people born into money like Paris Hilton live it up) rather than some romantic idea of fighting off foreign invaders and living in the hills (i.e. Red Dawn)?