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Except that bankruptcy (particularly corporate bankruptcy) is hardly as permanent as death. And no-one making decisions at AIG was personally on the hook for re

by roc 14y ago

Except that bankruptcy (particularly corporate bankruptcy) is hardly as permanent as death. And no-one making decisions at AIG was personally on the hook for remotely that level of responsibility. Conflating their position with calamitous death seems borderline disingenuous. You're soliciting emotional reactions to an unforeseeable emergency. But AIG was in a situation that years of rational business decisions put in the cards. They not only should have known it could happen, but they'd also know that their gains from having done it far outweighed the personal potential losses. Which is almost certainly why the gambles were made in the first place and puts the lie to any analogy to human desperation in a split-second survival scenario.

ChuckMcM 14y ago
If you review the situation with AIG, the only available bankruptcy option available to AIG was Chapter 7, aka liquidation. There was no scenario without the government stepping in that they could have used Chapter 11 to re-organize. In this case, a corporate liquidation is exactly like death, the assets are divided up amongst the creditors and the company ceases to exist.
- roc 14y ago
  Nothing that can happen to a corporation is like human death for the humans making the decision, nor for the humans who stand to lose money for having invested in that company, nor for the humans who are employees at the corporation. It just isn't the same. Not remotely. There's no parallel. AIG, via its decision-makers, took the bet that the bailout would work out for them for the same reason they took the bets that put them into that position and the same reason they're taking the bet that it's worth suing the federal government: a sober analysis of risk/reward suggested it was the best business move. No-one acted out of desperation. No-one was going to be hung for their misdeeds. No-one was jumping out a window for grief or committing seppuku for shame.
- afarrell 14y ago
  No, liquidation of a corporation is only like a human's death in that it implies the division of the entity's assets. But the humans making the decision to accept the deal do not feel fear that they will cease to exist and they will leave their loved ones behind. They don't have the animal fear of physical pain either. Unless they have been terribly reckless with their personal finances, they are not at any risk of actual death. At most, they have dread of embarrassment and the shame of having failed the trust of their employees.
  - pohl 14y ago
    No, liquidation of a corporation is only like a human's death in that it implies the division of the entity's assets. The resemblance between this and becoming worm-food is uncanny, though.
- tripzilch 14y ago
  > In this case, a corporate liquidation is exactly like death If you actually believe this, then I believe you are a terrible person.
- kahawe 14y ago
  Except "death" is not a viable nor reasonable choice for a human being, while bankruptcy and/or liquidation are both very normal and reasonable choices for an organization especially if that organization got itself into that trouble in the first place and had it been any other (smaller) business, this would have instantly been the end of it. The very fact that the government even stepped in is a major exception to the system as a whole, so this is more like the flying spaghetti monster sending you back to earth after your suicide and you then wanting to sue His Noodly Appendage for not having been able to play the lottery on the day of your death and/or not picking up Charon's ferry bill for you. And there is no law against offering a tough deal when the odds are stacked for you and your partner has their back against the wall - a principle the banks and insurances use and (strongly) abuse each and every day against those who have no choice. Again, had this been some even-bigger-money-giant buying AIG out and then running the place into the ground again, it would have also been the end of it. They are twisting a rule that was obviously meant to keep capitalism and business separate from government just to get some money out of it when without that governmental divine intervention they would not even be existent in the first place. I am all for playing devil's advocate and looking at the flip-side of things and great you made an attempt but, sorry, this is wrong on so many levels, there is no right way of looking at it.

by roc 14y ago

ChuckMcM 14y ago

If you review the situation with AIG, the only available bankruptcy option available to AIG was Chapter 7, aka liquidation. There was no scenario without the government stepping in that they could have used Chapter 11 to re-organize. In this case, a corporate liquidation is exactly like death, the assets are divided up amongst the creditors and the company ceases to exist.

roc 14y ago
Nothing that can happen to a corporation is like human death for the humans making the decision, nor for the humans who stand to lose money for having invested in that company, nor for the humans who are employees at the corporation. It just isn't the same. Not remotely. There's no parallel. AIG, via its decision-makers, took the bet that the bailout would work out for them for the same reason they took the bets that put them into that position and the same reason they're taking the bet that it's worth suing the federal government: a sober analysis of risk/reward suggested it was the best business move. No-one acted out of desperation. No-one was going to be hung for their misdeeds. No-one was jumping out a window for grief or committing seppuku for shame.
afarrell 14y ago
No, liquidation of a corporation is only like a human's death in that it implies the division of the entity's assets. But the humans making the decision to accept the deal do not feel fear that they will cease to exist and they will leave their loved ones behind. They don't have the animal fear of physical pain either. Unless they have been terribly reckless with their personal finances, they are not at any risk of actual death. At most, they have dread of embarrassment and the shame of having failed the trust of their employees.
- pohl 14y ago
  No, liquidation of a corporation is only like a human's death in that it implies the division of the entity's assets. The resemblance between this and becoming worm-food is uncanny, though.
tripzilch 14y ago
> In this case, a corporate liquidation is exactly like death If you actually believe this, then I believe you are a terrible person.
kahawe 14y ago
Except "death" is not a viable nor reasonable choice for a human being, while bankruptcy and/or liquidation are both very normal and reasonable choices for an organization especially if that organization got itself into that trouble in the first place and had it been any other (smaller) business, this would have instantly been the end of it. The very fact that the government even stepped in is a major exception to the system as a whole, so this is more like the flying spaghetti monster sending you back to earth after your suicide and you then wanting to sue His Noodly Appendage for not having been able to play the lottery on the day of your death and/or not picking up Charon's ferry bill for you. And there is no law against offering a tough deal when the odds are stacked for you and your partner has their back against the wall - a principle the banks and insurances use and (strongly) abuse each and every day against those who have no choice. Again, had this been some even-bigger-money-giant buying AIG out and then running the place into the ground again, it would have also been the end of it. They are twisting a rule that was obviously meant to keep capitalism and business separate from government just to get some money out of it when without that governmental divine intervention they would not even be existent in the first place. I am all for playing devil's advocate and looking at the flip-side of things and great you made an attempt but, sorry, this is wrong on so many levels, there is no right way of looking at it.