11 ms·

Anyone else have their "sketchy" filters activated after reading this article? Author mentions how he travels around the world and how he's meeting up with fri

by nlh 14y ago

Anyone else have their "sketchy" filters activated after reading this article? Author mentions how he travels around the world and how he's meeting up with friends / colleagues at this conference (and that he knows them from email lists / online forums), but there's no talk whatsoever in the article about what businesses any of them run. That's usually a red flag to me -- feels like the scummy side of the Internet. Doesn't take away from the point (mostly) - that the Internet is enabling a new type of remote-working lifestyle - but I can't get over my spidey senses tingling about the underlying...

michaelochurch 14y ago
I think there's an exponential return on efforts for a lot of this work. Most people can't take away enough time from their day job and responsibilities to get good at it, but people who do and take an investment mentality (investing their surplus time back into their skills and contacts) can take off. For example, if I spent 6 months on an app, I doubt it would pay rent, because there's a lot I'd have to learn and it would probably (?) be amateurish. On the other hand, if I cut out 18 months and kept iterating, I'm sure I'd do better, financially, than I'm doing at my day job. I haven't won this game yet (I have a fairly typical day job for a top-5% programmer of my age) but it seems like the trick is to find an avenue where you can rapidly get better, invest heavily in yourself when you find it, and eventually be independent.
- graeme 14y ago
  If it's something you want to do, my best recommendation is to save a large percentage of your income. I started without a savings buffer, and have managed to do alright. But there were many moments where having spare cash could either have let me outsource certain work, or avoid having to do work to earn money in the short term.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- lucaspiller 14y ago
  > On the other hand, if I cut out 18 months and kept iterating, I'm sure I'd do better, financially, than I'm doing at my day job. This is exactly it. At his last job, my (now) boss started a project on the side. Eventually he had to quit, not because he was making lots of money, but because he didn't have enough time to support the side project. It was bringing in money at this point, but not enough to match his previous salary. He kept at it though, and eventually the revenue grew. Twelve months later, there are 15 of us and money in the bank :)
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    May I ask what this project was? How did he know it was worth it to leave his current job? It seems to me that the scary part isn't the month or few without income, but the risk that you can't get back into your old gig (or something comparable). That's a very small risk of course, because developers are in high demand, but enough to give pause. One month to try something cool is a small cost, but quitting your job usually means you can't go back in the same standing.
    - tomjen3 14y ago
      If you really can't get a job anywhere as a good developer, or as a freelancer, you probably should check what you are doing wrong. You aren't likely to go back to your previous job, but even a failed startup should qualify you for a better job. If you have the oppertunity, go for it. You regret the things you didn't do more than the things you did do.
      - michaelochurch 14y ago
        What you say is all true, but there's one thing that probably hasn't hit most HN readers yet: the job-hopping stigma. It sucks that it exists, but it can catch up with people after a certain point. Yes, good programmers can generally get better jobs quickly, but there is a point some people get to where the "job hopper" image starts to hurt them. Most people, if they see a string of 6-month jobs, assume this person is constantly getting fired.
graeme 14y ago
You can google him. He runs a site that focuses on relationship, fashion and related issues, catering to men. http://postmasculine.com/ http://postmasculine.com/ It's popular, and provides value within that niche. There are TONS of legitimate business possibilities that are entirely remote. Software is a big one. I've met lots of developers who travel and work remotely. I personally have a pretty decent side income in book royalties, from Amazon and a couple of affiliates. If I can ramp that up a bit, I'd consider traveling.
- Ecio78 14y ago
  Recent podcast interviewing him http://foolishadventure.com/audio/work-from-anywhere-by-building-a-lifestyle-design-business-with-mark-manson-fa126/ http://foolishadventure.com/audio/work-from-anywhere-by-buil...
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  One of his blog posts was actually posted on HN ~6 months back and attracted a lot of discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4214480 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4214480
bdcravens 14y ago
The Lifestyle Business and Tropical MBA podcasts give some insight into this world. Basic idea is to set up "lifestyle business(es)" that provide you enough financial freedom to travel, etc. Downside is that the lifestyle is your passion, not the work you do, and it has a definite non-hacker approach.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  I don't like this idea that "lifestyle business" != passion. A lifestyle business is one that you build to improve peoples' lifestyles (including your own) rather than to make billions. You can give one a 70-hour-per-week effort, or you can automate yourself out of necessity and get passive income. You don't have to burn lots of hours and take degenerate risks to be passionate about something. I see Valve and Github as lifestyle businesses (proving the culture, not making the global rich list, is part of the goal) but I'm sure the leadership is quite passionate.
  - Mz 14y ago
    I agree with you and wrote about it more than a year ago: http://www.novemberwest.com/blog/2011/07/02/lifestyle-businesses-and-the-unreasonable-woman/ http://www.novemberwest.com/blog/2011/07/02/lifestyle-busine... The short version: "I Love Lucy" was a lifestyle business dreamed up so that Lucille Ball and her husband could have children. It was easier to revolutionize an industry than have a two career couple and family, so they did. In terms of technical innovation, the show was the "Star Wars" of its day, which is part of why reruns of it still get played to death to this day.
  - bdcravens 14y ago
    I tend to agree, but I was latching on to the commonly accepted definition, as Wikipedia defines it: "A lifestyle business is a business that is set up and run by its founders primarily with the aim of sustaining a particular level of income and no more; or to provide a foundation from which to enjoy a particular lifestyle." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_business
  - white_devil 14y ago
patio11 14y ago
FWIW: You could have written essentially the same (fairly value-free) article about a buddy or four of mine, who have roughly the same lifestyle, with the financial support being a software business.
- scarmig 14y ago
  It's a useful data point, but owing to patio11's unique situation, his friends are probably very non-representative of the general population. Though, it's also important to keep in mind the opposite bias: if someone happens not to live the described lifestyle, it's also fairly possible that that non-transient person also doesn't have a representative sample of the general population among his or her friends. It seems difficult to even design a way to scientifically study this and how widespread it is, too.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    The idea that Patrick's situation is unique is one of the dumbest and most damaging emergent memes on HN. Patrick is literally the textbook story of how to get to this point without having a unique circumstance. He started from the worst job in software, and clawed his way out with (all due respect to Patrick) possibly the least technically ambitious product in the history of commercial software development. Cut it out. The difference between you & Patrick is literally just "desire to be like Patrick".
    - scarmig 14y ago
      There is a world of difference between saying it's impossible to accomplish what he has and saying that he, at this moment, has developed a place for himself that relatively few people, even here on HN, have. The former is obviously wrong, just as much as the latter is obviously right.
      - tptacek 14y ago
        The point is that if Patrick can do it starting as a Japanese salaryman, you can most probably do it from whatever position you're starting from even more easily. Obviously, most HN'ers haven't established for themselves the career Patrick has. My point addresses why that is. I'm arguing here with the same mentality that says 37signals advice only works for 37signals, "because they got to start with a hugely successful blog".
grecy 14y ago
Read the Four hour work week, where Timothy talks at length about the kinds of businesses they run.
mmvvaa 14y ago
I can attest that it is indeed the 'scummy side of the internet'. I'm developing a real online business in Medellin (mentioned in the article as one place becoming popular) - and have run across a bunch of Timothy Ferriss groupies that spend their days perfecting the art of SEO, for businesses that they fully know bring in cero value to society. They consider the internet a fool's playground, and their mission seems to be that of profitting from its fools.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- roel_v 14y ago
  "They consider the internet a fool's playground" ... Well, to be fair, it is.
  - mmvvaa 14y ago
    It may be, in the most darwinian sense. In the same sense that warlords justify genocides.
rjd 14y ago
I did this for about 5 or so years, earnt great money building corporate web services, general business automation stuff, and web sites. I stopped as I grew bored of dealing with large enterprises and general depression from the repetition and changed tact. Seriously considering returning to doing though just for the amount of freedom you get. Just yesterday I was feeling jealous that a friend posted on facebook he has locked in a contract with the Tonga tourism board and is currently sailing his yatch to Tonga to start the contract. After sailing to New Zealand for the Hobbit premier. I met this guy wiring up financial web services between banking mainframes in Singapore and some reporting companies. Not exactly what I'd call scummy side of the internet.. unless you have a very low opinion of financial traders LOL. Once while on a diving boat in the Red Sea I was chatting talking to the others divers before our next dive and it turned out 3 out around 7 of us where free lancer software developers. I have been told by people that Britain does have an unusaly high work from home rate for IT workers (never verified that statement though). As for rich though... I used to get paid a hell of a lot, but in all reality I burnt a hell of a lot of cash really quick. I think the aforementioned diving trip was £2000 for 8 days for example. And there was a lot of down time as well. I had some contracts that took over a year to finalise. Loneliness was never an issue either. I was doing all this around the age of 25, and particularly working in London you could literally waltz down to a pub, use the free wifi and chat to the locals. If you choose a decent pub the culture there is amazing and the local bar flies will introduce you to every person in the neighborhood. The only time I ever suffer from loneliness was living in Northern Ireland, anyone that knows the history of NI can piece together why that place can be a harsh on strangers.
- petemc_ 14y ago
  Being from Belfast that last line makes me pretty sad. For what it's worth there are plenty of good people and somewhat frequent meetups/tech talks etc. Usually organised through various groups like ruby users. There's also Laverys..
  - rjd 14y ago
    Its all good I definitely don't hold the place or the people to blame. I was living in Cookstown at the time traveling around meeting long lost relatives. I met more than a few good people, but also some of the worst (a few fisticuff incidents stories not appropriate for here, and being questioned as to why I had just wandered into a local pub). It just took a long time to gain peoples trust after that you where treated like royalty.
kinkora 14y ago
If you scroll to the bottom, you will see this bit: "Mark Manson is an entrepreneur, writer and perpetual world traveler. He writes about unconventional living and self development at his blog Postmasculine.com."
aneth4 14y ago
What would make you think this is not possible? As I write from the rooftop pool bar at Bangkok Hotel. I pretty much live this lifestyle, though I wouldn't say I'm all that connected into the nomadic community. For instance, I was not aware of the Tim Ferris conference. I tend to socialize completely outside this scene actually. Perhaps I should get more connected. Loneliness is indeed the major issue, fortunately for me often sated by my adequate social and dating abilities.
DanAndrews 14y ago
I hosted a similar conference for digital nomads in October and the basic breakdown off the top of my head: 1) 50% Web Services Providers (Owners of firms or freelancers) - Devs., PPC, SEO, Graphic Design and Similar. 2) 20% Owners of Hard Goods or Software Products 3) 20% - people with larger businesses who have "made it" and now pull salary and travel full time (or part time) and invest in new biz or projects. 4) 10% - Consultants or remote work arrangements. Like attracts like and all, so the fact that nobody at our conference was sketchy might not mean much, but I didn't feel uncomfortable about anyone's biz and there were 80 or so attendees. Mark isn't representative (in my experience) of this new digital nomadic class because his business model is so difficult: he makes money from his writing. Which is fantastic (I love reading his articles), but it would be a lot easier for him to provide paid for PPC services. My business, by the way, is selling custom designed products (like cat furniture) from ecommerce stores. I'm now started a new biz throwing these types of conferences for this growing remote-working scene. I don't share Mark's lament in this article, but I enjoyed reading it.

by nlh 14y ago

michaelochurch 14y ago

I think there's an exponential return on efforts for a lot of this work. Most people can't take away enough time from their day job and responsibilities to get good at it, but people who do and take an investment mentality (investing their surplus time back into their skills and contacts) can take off. For example, if I spent 6 months on an app, I doubt it would pay rent, because there's a lot I'd have to learn and it would probably (?) be amateurish. On the other hand, if I cut out 18 months and kept iterating, I'm sure I'd do better, financially, than I'm doing at my day job. I haven't won this game yet (I have a fairly typical day job for a top-5% programmer of my age) but it seems like the trick is to find an avenue where you can rapidly get better, invest heavily in yourself when you find it, and eventually be independent.

graeme 14y ago
If it's something you want to do, my best recommendation is to save a large percentage of your income. I started without a savings buffer, and have managed to do alright. But there were many moments where having spare cash could either have let me outsource certain work, or avoid having to do work to earn money in the short term.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
lucaspiller 14y ago
> On the other hand, if I cut out 18 months and kept iterating, I'm sure I'd do better, financially, than I'm doing at my day job. This is exactly it. At his last job, my (now) boss started a project on the side. Eventually he had to quit, not because he was making lots of money, but because he didn't have enough time to support the side project. It was bringing in money at this point, but not enough to match his previous salary. He kept at it though, and eventually the revenue grew. Twelve months later, there are 15 of us and money in the bank :)
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  May I ask what this project was? How did he know it was worth it to leave his current job? It seems to me that the scary part isn't the month or few without income, but the risk that you can't get back into your old gig (or something comparable). That's a very small risk of course, because developers are in high demand, but enough to give pause. One month to try something cool is a small cost, but quitting your job usually means you can't go back in the same standing.
  - tomjen3 14y ago
    If you really can't get a job anywhere as a good developer, or as a freelancer, you probably should check what you are doing wrong. You aren't likely to go back to your previous job, but even a failed startup should qualify you for a better job. If you have the oppertunity, go for it. You regret the things you didn't do more than the things you did do.
    - michaelochurch 14y ago
      What you say is all true, but there's one thing that probably hasn't hit most HN readers yet: the job-hopping stigma. It sucks that it exists, but it can catch up with people after a certain point. Yes, good programmers can generally get better jobs quickly, but there is a point some people get to where the "job hopper" image starts to hurt them. Most people, if they see a string of 6-month jobs, assume this person is constantly getting fired.

graeme 14y ago

You can google him. He runs a site that focuses on relationship, fashion and related issues, catering to men. http://postmasculine.com/ http://postmasculine.com/ It's popular, and provides value within that niche. There are TONS of legitimate business possibilities that are entirely remote. Software is a big one. I've met lots of developers who travel and work remotely. I personally have a pretty decent side income in book royalties, from Amazon and a couple of affiliates. If I can ramp that up a bit, I'd consider traveling.

Ecio78 14y ago
Recent podcast interviewing him http://foolishadventure.com/audio/work-from-anywhere-by-building-a-lifestyle-design-business-with-mark-manson-fa126/ http://foolishadventure.com/audio/work-from-anywhere-by-buil...
w1ntermute 14y ago
One of his blog posts was actually posted on HN ~6 months back and attracted a lot of discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4214480 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4214480

bdcravens 14y ago

The Lifestyle Business and Tropical MBA podcasts give some insight into this world. Basic idea is to set up "lifestyle business(es)" that provide you enough financial freedom to travel, etc. Downside is that the lifestyle is your passion, not the work you do, and it has a definite non-hacker approach.

michaelochurch 14y ago
I don't like this idea that "lifestyle business" != passion. A lifestyle business is one that you build to improve peoples' lifestyles (including your own) rather than to make billions. You can give one a 70-hour-per-week effort, or you can automate yourself out of necessity and get passive income. You don't have to burn lots of hours and take degenerate risks to be passionate about something. I see Valve and Github as lifestyle businesses (proving the culture, not making the global rich list, is part of the goal) but I'm sure the leadership is quite passionate.
- Mz 14y ago
  I agree with you and wrote about it more than a year ago: http://www.novemberwest.com/blog/2011/07/02/lifestyle-businesses-and-the-unreasonable-woman/ http://www.novemberwest.com/blog/2011/07/02/lifestyle-busine... The short version: "I Love Lucy" was a lifestyle business dreamed up so that Lucille Ball and her husband could have children. It was easier to revolutionize an industry than have a two career couple and family, so they did. In terms of technical innovation, the show was the "Star Wars" of its day, which is part of why reruns of it still get played to death to this day.
- bdcravens 14y ago
  I tend to agree, but I was latching on to the commonly accepted definition, as Wikipedia defines it: "A lifestyle business is a business that is set up and run by its founders primarily with the aim of sustaining a particular level of income and no more; or to provide a foundation from which to enjoy a particular lifestyle." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_business
- white_devil 14y ago

patio11 14y ago

FWIW: You could have written essentially the same (fairly value-free) article about a buddy or four of mine, who have roughly the same lifestyle, with the financial support being a software business.

scarmig 14y ago
It's a useful data point, but owing to patio11's unique situation, his friends are probably very non-representative of the general population. Though, it's also important to keep in mind the opposite bias: if someone happens not to live the described lifestyle, it's also fairly possible that that non-transient person also doesn't have a representative sample of the general population among his or her friends. It seems difficult to even design a way to scientifically study this and how widespread it is, too.
- tptacek 14y ago
  The idea that Patrick's situation is unique is one of the dumbest and most damaging emergent memes on HN. Patrick is literally the textbook story of how to get to this point without having a unique circumstance. He started from the worst job in software, and clawed his way out with (all due respect to Patrick) possibly the least technically ambitious product in the history of commercial software development. Cut it out. The difference between you & Patrick is literally just "desire to be like Patrick".
  - scarmig 14y ago
    There is a world of difference between saying it's impossible to accomplish what he has and saying that he, at this moment, has developed a place for himself that relatively few people, even here on HN, have. The former is obviously wrong, just as much as the latter is obviously right.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      The point is that if Patrick can do it starting as a Japanese salaryman, you can most probably do it from whatever position you're starting from even more easily. Obviously, most HN'ers haven't established for themselves the career Patrick has. My point addresses why that is. I'm arguing here with the same mentality that says 37signals advice only works for 37signals, "because they got to start with a hugely successful blog".

grecy 14y ago

Read the Four hour work week, where Timothy talks at length about the kinds of businesses they run.

mmvvaa 14y ago

I can attest that it is indeed the 'scummy side of the internet'. I'm developing a real online business in Medellin (mentioned in the article as one place becoming popular) - and have run across a bunch of Timothy Ferriss groupies that spend their days perfecting the art of SEO, for businesses that they fully know bring in cero value to society. They consider the internet a fool's playground, and their mission seems to be that of profitting from its fools.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
roel_v 14y ago
"They consider the internet a fool's playground" ... Well, to be fair, it is.
- mmvvaa 14y ago
  It may be, in the most darwinian sense. In the same sense that warlords justify genocides.

rjd 14y ago

I did this for about 5 or so years, earnt great money building corporate web services, general business automation stuff, and web sites. I stopped as I grew bored of dealing with large enterprises and general depression from the repetition and changed tact. Seriously considering returning to doing though just for the amount of freedom you get. Just yesterday I was feeling jealous that a friend posted on facebook he has locked in a contract with the Tonga tourism board and is currently sailing his yatch to Tonga to start the contract. After sailing to New Zealand for the Hobbit premier. I met this guy wiring up financial web services between banking mainframes in Singapore and some reporting companies. Not exactly what I'd call scummy side of the internet.. unless you have a very low opinion of financial traders LOL. Once while on a diving boat in the Red Sea I was chatting talking to the others divers before our next dive and it turned out 3 out around 7 of us where free lancer software developers. I have been told by people that Britain does have an unusaly high work from home rate for IT workers (never verified that statement though). As for rich though... I used to get paid a hell of a lot, but in all reality I burnt a hell of a lot of cash really quick. I think the aforementioned diving trip was £2000 for 8 days for example. And there was a lot of down time as well. I had some contracts that took over a year to finalise. Loneliness was never an issue either. I was doing all this around the age of 25, and particularly working in London you could literally waltz down to a pub, use the free wifi and chat to the locals. If you choose a decent pub the culture there is amazing and the local bar flies will introduce you to every person in the neighborhood. The only time I ever suffer from loneliness was living in Northern Ireland, anyone that knows the history of NI can piece together why that place can be a harsh on strangers.

petemc_ 14y ago
Being from Belfast that last line makes me pretty sad. For what it's worth there are plenty of good people and somewhat frequent meetups/tech talks etc. Usually organised through various groups like ruby users. There's also Laverys..
- rjd 14y ago
  Its all good I definitely don't hold the place or the people to blame. I was living in Cookstown at the time traveling around meeting long lost relatives. I met more than a few good people, but also some of the worst (a few fisticuff incidents stories not appropriate for here, and being questioned as to why I had just wandered into a local pub). It just took a long time to gain peoples trust after that you where treated like royalty.

kinkora 14y ago

If you scroll to the bottom, you will see this bit: "Mark Manson is an entrepreneur, writer and perpetual world traveler. He writes about unconventional living and self development at his blog Postmasculine.com."

aneth4 14y ago

What would make you think this is not possible? As I write from the rooftop pool bar at Bangkok Hotel. I pretty much live this lifestyle, though I wouldn't say I'm all that connected into the nomadic community. For instance, I was not aware of the Tim Ferris conference. I tend to socialize completely outside this scene actually. Perhaps I should get more connected. Loneliness is indeed the major issue, fortunately for me often sated by my adequate social and dating abilities.

DanAndrews 14y ago

I hosted a similar conference for digital nomads in October and the basic breakdown off the top of my head: 1) 50% Web Services Providers (Owners of firms or freelancers) - Devs., PPC, SEO, Graphic Design and Similar. 2) 20% Owners of Hard Goods or Software Products 3) 20% - people with larger businesses who have "made it" and now pull salary and travel full time (or part time) and invest in new biz or projects. 4) 10% - Consultants or remote work arrangements. Like attracts like and all, so the fact that nobody at our conference was sketchy might not mean much, but I didn't feel uncomfortable about anyone's biz and there were 80 or so attendees. Mark isn't representative (in my experience) of this new digital nomadic class because his business model is so difficult: he makes money from his writing. Which is fantastic (I love reading his articles), but it would be a lot easier for him to provide paid for PPC services. My business, by the way, is selling custom designed products (like cat furniture) from ecommerce stores. I'm now started a new biz throwing these types of conferences for this growing remote-working scene. I don't share Mark's lament in this article, but I enjoyed reading it.