7 ms·

You're right: I'm here because the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other

by seldo 14y ago

You're right: I'm here because the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other people like yourself. The problem with the US immigration system is that none of the people suffering in it can vote to change it. The purpose of my story is to raise awareness amongst US citizens who understand the importance of immigration to the economy that the system is broken, at nearly every level. I can't fix the system by complaining, but they can.

jacquesm 14y ago
> But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other people like yourself. I made my decision independently long ago. You really should ask yourself: if this is not enough to tip the balance for you (who has experienced it firsthand) why would it tip the balance for someone who only gets it second hand? Nobody is going to fix anything because of this blog post, but you can make a statement that really carries weight. But if you feel that your greencard is worth more than your dignity or principles then you've made your own bed and now you must lie in it.
- seldo 14y ago
  Understand that my native country, Trinidad, has laws still on the books that make my sexuality illegal. You have to be pretty shitty to be worse at respecting my dignity and principles than that, so the US has a low bar. But yes, I could pick some other first-world country to move to. In fact, I lived in the UK for seven years: in that time, I made as much progress in my tech career as I did in my first six months in the US. I think America really is a land of amazing opportunity, and I believe action to change the system from the inside says more than staying out does. And I believe that America is full of decent, compassionate people who genuinely believe that fairness and justice are bedrock principles of their nation, and would be horrified to learn that this is how their country treats some people -- and I'm right, because I can see them saying so elsewhere in this thread. This is indeed my bed, but I think I can change the sheets :-)
  - mailshanx 14y ago
    >>In fact, I lived in the UK for seven years: in that time, I made as much progress in my tech career as I did in my first six months in the US. Can you elaborate on that?
    - strictfp 14y ago
      Let me guess. In the UK you are promoted based on years of experience, in the US based on competence.
    - seldo 14y ago
      I went to college in the UK. Before, during and after, I worked at a series of startups. I gained experience in PHP, MySQL, etc.. -- a slow but steady accumulation of skill. Then I got a job with Yahoo in the UK, who despite their (many!) flaws as a company are a world-class web development organization -- I learned more, but at much the same speed. After a year, Yahoo moved me to the bay area, and the difference was shocking. The demands made of me professionally, the density of smart and talented people everywhere, the intensity of the focus on tech culturally and socially: it blew me away. I went from feeling like a spectator of internet technology to a participant at the leading edge -- in terms of the skills I had, the people I met, the sense of the industry's direction. The bay area is where people invent the next big thing, continuously. London has improved substantially as a startup environment since I left, but it's still nowhere near the same league.
mbesto 14y ago
> But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other people like yourself. Says who? How do you speak on others behalf? No offense, but your post (like many others) just sounds like someone who is upset that were inconvenienced for a day. If you have all of your papers sorted out (and nothing is fishy), what's so mentally anguishing about having to wait? The problem is, as you say, "the benefits outweigh the disadvantages". So, the US will continue to act this way until that statement gets less and less true. I'm not disagreeing with your premise, I just think your opinion would be a lot better served if you formulated your response to the actions against you in the proper way. > The problem with the US immigration system is that none of the people suffering in it can vote to change it. Your spot on with this comment. Until the people who are American citizens start suffering, you won't see any reform in this area. If you are actually serious about reform (and I hope you are, I believe it's needed) than you'll need a much more of a powerful argument than "I can't be inconvenienced at customs". Put some data together about how immigration is needed to create new jobs in America, and if those who are inconvenienced continue to be pushed away, then these jobs are a lot less likely to be created. Maybe it makes sense to create a sub-community of foreign entrepreneurs in the valley who all share your same thoughts?
- retrogradeorbit 14y ago
  I think your faith in the electoral process changing things is simply that; faith. Hypothetically, what if this policy did impact large numbers of voting Americans, but both parties supported it? How would your vote help to change things then? I ask these questions because there are plenty of examples of laws that adversely affect voting Americans but fall into this category of policy supported by both sides.
- mahyarm 14y ago
  > No offense, but your post (like many others) just sounds like someone who is upset that were inconvenienced for a day. If you have all of your papers sorted out (and nothing is fishy), what's so mentally anguishing about having to wait? It's not just 'waiting'. The problem is every time you cross the border there is the very real chance that the mistaken opinion of a border guard would cost you job and your ability to enter the USA for many years. The USA is also an air hub, and many flights would be closed off to you. It's not just an inconvenience. They have some of the nastiest attitudes I have ever encountered in people too. I've never encountered a group that seemed to be so callous and seem to have a complete lack of human empathy amongst a good chunk of their members. They don't have to, they have a near complete power over you when your at the border.

by seldo 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

> But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other people like yourself. I made my decision independently long ago. You really should ask yourself: if this is not enough to tip the balance for you (who has experienced it firsthand) why would it tip the balance for someone who only gets it second hand? Nobody is going to fix anything because of this blog post, but you can make a statement that really carries weight. But if you feel that your greencard is worth more than your dignity or principles then you've made your own bed and now you must lie in it.

seldo 14y ago
Understand that my native country, Trinidad, has laws still on the books that make my sexuality illegal. You have to be pretty shitty to be worse at respecting my dignity and principles than that, so the US has a low bar. But yes, I could pick some other first-world country to move to. In fact, I lived in the UK for seven years: in that time, I made as much progress in my tech career as I did in my first six months in the US. I think America really is a land of amazing opportunity, and I believe action to change the system from the inside says more than staying out does. And I believe that America is full of decent, compassionate people who genuinely believe that fairness and justice are bedrock principles of their nation, and would be horrified to learn that this is how their country treats some people -- and I'm right, because I can see them saying so elsewhere in this thread. This is indeed my bed, but I think I can change the sheets :-)
- mailshanx 14y ago
  >>In fact, I lived in the UK for seven years: in that time, I made as much progress in my tech career as I did in my first six months in the US. Can you elaborate on that?
  - strictfp 14y ago
    Let me guess. In the UK you are promoted based on years of experience, in the US based on competence.
  - seldo 14y ago
    I went to college in the UK. Before, during and after, I worked at a series of startups. I gained experience in PHP, MySQL, etc.. -- a slow but steady accumulation of skill. Then I got a job with Yahoo in the UK, who despite their (many!) flaws as a company are a world-class web development organization -- I learned more, but at much the same speed. After a year, Yahoo moved me to the bay area, and the difference was shocking. The demands made of me professionally, the density of smart and talented people everywhere, the intensity of the focus on tech culturally and socially: it blew me away. I went from feeling like a spectator of internet technology to a participant at the leading edge -- in terms of the skills I had, the people I met, the sense of the industry's direction. The bay area is where people invent the next big thing, continuously. London has improved substantially as a startup environment since I left, but it's still nowhere near the same league.

mbesto 14y ago

> But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other people like yourself. Says who? How do you speak on others behalf? No offense, but your post (like many others) just sounds like someone who is upset that were inconvenienced for a day. If you have all of your papers sorted out (and nothing is fishy), what's so mentally anguishing about having to wait? The problem is, as you say, "the benefits outweigh the disadvantages". So, the US will continue to act this way until that statement gets less and less true. I'm not disagreeing with your premise, I just think your opinion would be a lot better served if you formulated your response to the actions against you in the proper way. > The problem with the US immigration system is that none of the people suffering in it can vote to change it. Your spot on with this comment. Until the people who are American citizens start suffering, you won't see any reform in this area. If you are actually serious about reform (and I hope you are, I believe it's needed) than you'll need a much more of a powerful argument than "I can't be inconvenienced at customs". Put some data together about how immigration is needed to create new jobs in America, and if those who are inconvenienced continue to be pushed away, then these jobs are a lot less likely to be created. Maybe it makes sense to create a sub-community of foreign entrepreneurs in the valley who all share your same thoughts?

retrogradeorbit 14y ago
I think your faith in the electoral process changing things is simply that; faith. Hypothetically, what if this policy did impact large numbers of voting Americans, but both parties supported it? How would your vote help to change things then? I ask these questions because there are plenty of examples of laws that adversely affect voting Americans but fall into this category of policy supported by both sides.
mahyarm 14y ago
> No offense, but your post (like many others) just sounds like someone who is upset that were inconvenienced for a day. If you have all of your papers sorted out (and nothing is fishy), what's so mentally anguishing about having to wait? It's not just 'waiting'. The problem is every time you cross the border there is the very real chance that the mistaken opinion of a border guard would cost you job and your ability to enter the USA for many years. The USA is also an air hub, and many flights would be closed off to you. It's not just an inconvenience. They have some of the nastiest attitudes I have ever encountered in people too. I've never encountered a group that seemed to be so callous and seem to have a complete lack of human empathy amongst a good chunk of their members. They don't have to, they have a near complete power over you when your at the border.