5 ms·

How about all the 'XYZ' that could be contributing a lot and bettering the world via their work in software development but aren't getting a chance to do that?

by diziet 14y ago

Tichy 14y ago
What makes you think they don't better the world in whatever else profession they choose?
- diziet 14y ago
  My thesis is that since software and software development are continually growing in scope, popularity and influence on the world, having more people get involved across all kind of demographics will be an overall net benefit to the world.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    That's a big assumption. I've been a software developer for 12 years and have yet to work on anything worthwhile. And Dilbert probably exists for a reason, too - most jobs are crap.
patrickaljord 14y ago
How are they not getting a chance to contribute to software development? Github doesn't require an ID card, git push doesn't check for your gender or sexuality last time my wife used it. Any women that have done significant contributions to open source projects on github or else are always invited everywhere, give many conferences and have tons of followers on twitter. If you know of any gem that don't get any attention, someone who has made amazing contributions on github and that is completely unheard of (including their code? though that would be hard to imagine), please share.
- diziet 14y ago
  Sure, I agree with you that development, especially open source online based one is much closer to being merit based than anywhere else. However, the limiting factor is the number of people that are in a position to know about the world of software development, to actually be able to contribute -- that's where the numbers are off. You can't open a door that you don't know exists. Also, from what I understand in the FLOSS world, the number of contributors that are women are once again a smaller fraction than the number of software developers in general.
  - patrickaljord 14y ago
    Are you saying that women are not smart enough to find out about open source, git or github which are a couple of google search away for anyone with interest in software development? I find this quite insulting for women. Or are you saying there's a white male conspiracy that prevents women from doing these couple of google search? Which is not insulting but pretty absurd.
    - diziet 14y ago
      I am saying neither of those things -- you seem to be pulling a straw-man argument here! I used the analogy of "not knowing the door is there" rather than "not being smart enough to see the door". What I am saying is that due to reasons such as social selection, bias, expectations of what women should do, discrimination etc less women are interested in software.
      - patrickaljord 14y ago
        I agree that the reason there are less women in programming is that they are not interested in it. Not because those who are interested in it are discriminated against (in fact I've noticed quite the contrary, women who are interested in programming are usually very encouraged and invited to confs, special events for women etc). So why are they not interested in the first place? As you said, women are less interested in software, they also in general are less interested in science and technical tools than men are, this is why we can observe so few women in tech. I have no idea why this is, it could be "expectations of what women should do" or maybe and I know that this sounds bad but it can't be ignored just because it doesn't sound good, a natural aversion in many women (not all!) for scientific matters or maybe a combination of both and more. I have absolutely no idea as neither reasons have been proven scientifically so I won't venture into any wild guess. But blaming it on white males imposed discrimination seems ridiculous and misses the point.
zxcdw 14y ago
What makes you think 'XYZ' aren't bettering the world in more suitable fields for persons themselves? What would prevent 'XYZ' from "getting a chance" to do that in tech/"our field"? Why should the 'XYZ' contribute if they refuse to contribute without special benefits because they somehow are "special"(which they are not)? Just because Jamal is black doesn't mean he's any worse/better/special than Henry who happens to be white. Just because Sally is a lesbian doesn't mean she's any worse/better/special than Cindy who is straight. You get the point. Stop categorizing people. There are no categories. There are only people. All equal regardless of age, sex, sexual preference, "race", origin, religious beliefs, ... Only people. Equal people.
- diziet 14y ago
  I did not imply or say that 'XYZ' should get any benefits, nor categorized anyone, I'd simply answered your question why it might be a problem -- it is my fault for not quoting back the exact part of your post I was replying to. My point is that I think the optimal number of people in minorities 'XYZ' that might be more happy and productive working in software, and the overall net benefit to the world in terms of 'efficient allocation of labor' is a state where more 'XYZ' work in software development.
  - zanny 14y ago
    This is a valid opinion, but you can't go back and try to correct for people who, given different circumstances, might have grown into software and development rather than nursing or language or economics or another science. You do that, and you are somehow discriminating against someone on the basis of physical characteristics and are absolutely in the wrong. The solution is to make sure entry is unbiased, access is available, and you kind of have to hope culture eventually shifts away from inhereted biogtry and bias and towards indifference. Because at the end of the day, the "programmers are nerds" and "nerds are white men" mentality is pervasive from a young age, and that paints a flawed picture from the get-go. But it is getting better. Nerd culture is becoming more accepted, and computers are getting more pervasive, so they become more accepted too. There was an introductory bias that initiated a cultural stance in a very deeply derogatory way, and it will take decades for society to right itself away from that bias as long as it isn't perpetuated. But I don't think you can force it, especially with nonsense like affirmative action. That just perpetuates the bias by painting certain groups as "unnatural" in a setting where they have to be artificially inserted.
betterunix 14y ago
"How about all the 'XYZ' that could be contributing a lot and bettering the world via their work in software development but aren't getting a chance to do that?" This is not a simple matter of people being actively or even passively discriminated against. This is the result of the environments, decisions, and treatment people receive from their earliest elementary school days; there is almost nothing that can be done by the time people are in college. I have watched EE and CS departments do everything imaginable to try to increase diversity, yet they have made extremely modest improvements. Somewhere between the beginning of middle school and the end of high school, girls seem to stop being interested in math, science, and things that are relevant to engineering and CS. Somehow, my female classmates who had high scores on the AP calculus test all wound up somewhere other than engineering -- psychology, accounting, management, etc. Despite every possible opportunity being made available to women, despite departments running the gamut of things that could attract women, despite women representing a majority of students at many colleges, women continue to avoid engineering. So don't say that women are not getting the chance to be engineers or computer scientists. Women have more chances than anyone else; they are choosing not to take advantage of those opportunities. Figure out why that is the case, and maybe you can actually do something to solve the problem.

How about all the 'XYZ' that could be contributing a lot and bettering the world via their work in software development but aren't getting a chance to do that?

by diziet 14y ago

How about all the 'XYZ' that could be contributing a lot and bettering the world via their work in software development but aren't getting a chance to do that?

Tichy 14y ago

What makes you think they don't better the world in whatever else profession they choose?

diziet 14y ago
My thesis is that since software and software development are continually growing in scope, popularity and influence on the world, having more people get involved across all kind of demographics will be an overall net benefit to the world.
- Tichy 14y ago
  That's a big assumption. I've been a software developer for 12 years and have yet to work on anything worthwhile. And Dilbert probably exists for a reason, too - most jobs are crap.

patrickaljord 14y ago

How are they not getting a chance to contribute to software development? Github doesn't require an ID card, git push doesn't check for your gender or sexuality last time my wife used it. Any women that have done significant contributions to open source projects on github or else are always invited everywhere, give many conferences and have tons of followers on twitter. If you know of any gem that don't get any attention, someone who has made amazing contributions on github and that is completely unheard of (including their code? though that would be hard to imagine), please share.

diziet 14y ago
Sure, I agree with you that development, especially open source online based one is much closer to being merit based than anywhere else. However, the limiting factor is the number of people that are in a position to know about the world of software development, to actually be able to contribute -- that's where the numbers are off. You can't open a door that you don't know exists. Also, from what I understand in the FLOSS world, the number of contributors that are women are once again a smaller fraction than the number of software developers in general.
- patrickaljord 14y ago
  Are you saying that women are not smart enough to find out about open source, git or github which are a couple of google search away for anyone with interest in software development? I find this quite insulting for women. Or are you saying there's a white male conspiracy that prevents women from doing these couple of google search? Which is not insulting but pretty absurd.
  - diziet 14y ago
    I am saying neither of those things -- you seem to be pulling a straw-man argument here! I used the analogy of "not knowing the door is there" rather than "not being smart enough to see the door". What I am saying is that due to reasons such as social selection, bias, expectations of what women should do, discrimination etc less women are interested in software.
    - patrickaljord 14y ago
      I agree that the reason there are less women in programming is that they are not interested in it. Not because those who are interested in it are discriminated against (in fact I've noticed quite the contrary, women who are interested in programming are usually very encouraged and invited to confs, special events for women etc). So why are they not interested in the first place? As you said, women are less interested in software, they also in general are less interested in science and technical tools than men are, this is why we can observe so few women in tech. I have no idea why this is, it could be "expectations of what women should do" or maybe and I know that this sounds bad but it can't be ignored just because it doesn't sound good, a natural aversion in many women (not all!) for scientific matters or maybe a combination of both and more. I have absolutely no idea as neither reasons have been proven scientifically so I won't venture into any wild guess. But blaming it on white males imposed discrimination seems ridiculous and misses the point.

zxcdw 14y ago

What makes you think 'XYZ' aren't bettering the world in more suitable fields for persons themselves? What would prevent 'XYZ' from "getting a chance" to do that in tech/"our field"? Why should the 'XYZ' contribute if they refuse to contribute without special benefits because they somehow are "special"(which they are not)? Just because Jamal is black doesn't mean he's any worse/better/special than Henry who happens to be white. Just because Sally is a lesbian doesn't mean she's any worse/better/special than Cindy who is straight. You get the point. Stop categorizing people. There are no categories. There are only people. All equal regardless of age, sex, sexual preference, "race", origin, religious beliefs, ... Only people. Equal people.

diziet 14y ago
I did not imply or say that 'XYZ' should get any benefits, nor categorized anyone, I'd simply answered your question why it might be a problem -- it is my fault for not quoting back the exact part of your post I was replying to. My point is that I think the optimal number of people in minorities 'XYZ' that might be more happy and productive working in software, and the overall net benefit to the world in terms of 'efficient allocation of labor' is a state where more 'XYZ' work in software development.
- zanny 14y ago
  This is a valid opinion, but you can't go back and try to correct for people who, given different circumstances, might have grown into software and development rather than nursing or language or economics or another science. You do that, and you are somehow discriminating against someone on the basis of physical characteristics and are absolutely in the wrong. The solution is to make sure entry is unbiased, access is available, and you kind of have to hope culture eventually shifts away from inhereted biogtry and bias and towards indifference. Because at the end of the day, the "programmers are nerds" and "nerds are white men" mentality is pervasive from a young age, and that paints a flawed picture from the get-go. But it is getting better. Nerd culture is becoming more accepted, and computers are getting more pervasive, so they become more accepted too. There was an introductory bias that initiated a cultural stance in a very deeply derogatory way, and it will take decades for society to right itself away from that bias as long as it isn't perpetuated. But I don't think you can force it, especially with nonsense like affirmative action. That just perpetuates the bias by painting certain groups as "unnatural" in a setting where they have to be artificially inserted.

betterunix 14y ago

"How about all the 'XYZ' that could be contributing a lot and bettering the world via their work in software development but aren't getting a chance to do that?" This is not a simple matter of people being actively or even passively discriminated against. This is the result of the environments, decisions, and treatment people receive from their earliest elementary school days; there is almost nothing that can be done by the time people are in college. I have watched EE and CS departments do everything imaginable to try to increase diversity, yet they have made extremely modest improvements. Somewhere between the beginning of middle school and the end of high school, girls seem to stop being interested in math, science, and things that are relevant to engineering and CS. Somehow, my female classmates who had high scores on the AP calculus test all wound up somewhere other than engineering -- psychology, accounting, management, etc. Despite every possible opportunity being made available to women, despite departments running the gamut of things that could attract women, despite women representing a majority of students at many colleges, women continue to avoid engineering. So don't say that women are not getting the chance to be engineers or computer scientists. Women have more chances than anyone else; they are choosing not to take advantage of those opportunities. Figure out why that is the case, and maybe you can actually do something to solve the problem.