5 ms·

Allow me to clarify that the reminding of Herbert that Tolkien triggers for me is not based upon the quality of the work -- and I think you and I are going to a

Allow me to clarify that the reminding of Herbert that Tolkien triggers for me is not based upon the quality of the work -- and I think you and I are going to agree on how bad Herbert's is -- it's only the territorial and overbearing defense of a creation not his own, often with ill effect. In both cases, I wonder if we'd be better off had forward progress in the canon died with the author.

magicalist 14y ago
This and your comment above ("Some argued that elder Tolkien would not have published his notes and thoughts in that form") are a fair point, though Tolkien really did want to publish The Silmarillion for decades, he was just unable to find the time to finish it. I actually have some family members who feel the same way as you, and they've chosen to not read The Silmarillion at all because they prefer the off-handed hints and references to earlier times that pop in LotR to remain like that, rather than knowing the full stories. Personally, I've always loved JRR Tolkien's notion that these were legends, so conflicting drafts and different versions of tales were part and partial of that history, just as most mythological characters have sometimes conflicting and inconsistent stories told about them. While it does sometimes seem slightly strange that Christopher Tolkien spent basically his entire adult life helping with and then documenting his father's work, it's really not that different from what most people choose as their life's work. And while it might reduce some of the artistic aura around his works, I love seeing his thought process and how he evolved his world and characters. I really don't see much difference between reading the assembled published drafts and visiting Oxford and getting special permission to view the drafts, short of the fact that they've now been curated by the person most likely to be able to put them in close to the order they were actually written in. If it helps, think of them as an academic work, purely for the Tolkien scholars that came later, and not intended to be read cover to cover by most people. It's only an accident that there was enough commercial interest in Lord of the Rings to put these books in regular bookstores. Brian Herbert sinned unforgivably when he claimed that his books were based on his father's notes and unfinished drafts, so were basically the stories he was going to tell, while constructing the plots around characters that had only appeared in Brian's other made up Dune stories. He and his cowriter should also just not be allowed to write. They have a terrible, terrible way with words.
- gbhn 14y ago
  As someone who suffered through the Silmarillion, I can attest that it sucks. If you read it, you'll wish you hadn't. Partly as a result of this, and partly due to other idiocy through the years, I have some schadenfreude knowing the Tolkien estate is mad about the movies (as was inevitable). Couldn't happen to better people. The stories would be much better off in the public domain. I don't think it's a huge surprise the world works this way -- think of Star Wars. Do you really think those stories are better off in the hands of George Lucas or Disney? It turns out heirs are really poor custodians. We don't have royalty either, for much the same reasons.
  - geargrinder 14y ago
    Like many, I was disappointed the first time I read The Silmarillion. But later, I read it with the guidance of an english professor who brought The Silmarillion alive for me and in doing so made me appreciate The Lord of the Rings so much more. The Silmarillion is what makes Tolkien stand far above other authors who play at the fantasy world-creation game. Frank Herbert is one who also has a well-developed world that makes his books enjoyable over and over again.
    - charlieok 14y ago
      I can appreciate that creating a fantasy world requires a lot of behind-the-scenes notes and bookkeeping, and that the final product readers enjoy spares them this drudgery. Few but the most obsessed fans are going to be entertained by the detritus left on the floor during the crafting of the polished product.
  - NickPollard 14y ago
    As someone who has had the pleasure of reading The Silmarillion, I can attest it is a supreme work of literature and a joy to (and in my opinion, superior to LotR). In other words, people's tastes are their own. Don't let this person put you off.
  - jmspring 14y ago
    Skip the first biblical section and the Silmarillion is mostly readable. It took me 2-3 passes to realize this.
charlieok 14y ago
I never read any of the Dune books, but I will not soon forget my introduction to rage comics: http://large-images.tumblr.com/post/2326144712 http://large-images.tumblr.com/post/2326144712

magicalist 14y ago

This and your comment above ("Some argued that elder Tolkien would not have published his notes and thoughts in that form") are a fair point, though Tolkien really did want to publish The Silmarillion for decades, he was just unable to find the time to finish it. I actually have some family members who feel the same way as you, and they've chosen to not read The Silmarillion at all because they prefer the off-handed hints and references to earlier times that pop in LotR to remain like that, rather than knowing the full stories. Personally, I've always loved JRR Tolkien's notion that these were legends, so conflicting drafts and different versions of tales were part and partial of that history, just as most mythological characters have sometimes conflicting and inconsistent stories told about them. While it does sometimes seem slightly strange that Christopher Tolkien spent basically his entire adult life helping with and then documenting his father's work, it's really not that different from what most people choose as their life's work. And while it might reduce some of the artistic aura around his works, I love seeing his thought process and how he evolved his world and characters. I really don't see much difference between reading the assembled published drafts and visiting Oxford and getting special permission to view the drafts, short of the fact that they've now been curated by the person most likely to be able to put them in close to the order they were actually written in. If it helps, think of them as an academic work, purely for the Tolkien scholars that came later, and not intended to be read cover to cover by most people. It's only an accident that there was enough commercial interest in Lord of the Rings to put these books in regular bookstores. Brian Herbert sinned unforgivably when he claimed that his books were based on his father's notes and unfinished drafts, so were basically the stories he was going to tell, while constructing the plots around characters that had only appeared in Brian's other made up Dune stories. He and his cowriter should also just not be allowed to write. They have a terrible, terrible way with words.

gbhn 14y ago
As someone who suffered through the Silmarillion, I can attest that it sucks. If you read it, you'll wish you hadn't. Partly as a result of this, and partly due to other idiocy through the years, I have some schadenfreude knowing the Tolkien estate is mad about the movies (as was inevitable). Couldn't happen to better people. The stories would be much better off in the public domain. I don't think it's a huge surprise the world works this way -- think of Star Wars. Do you really think those stories are better off in the hands of George Lucas or Disney? It turns out heirs are really poor custodians. We don't have royalty either, for much the same reasons.
- geargrinder 14y ago
  Like many, I was disappointed the first time I read The Silmarillion. But later, I read it with the guidance of an english professor who brought The Silmarillion alive for me and in doing so made me appreciate The Lord of the Rings so much more. The Silmarillion is what makes Tolkien stand far above other authors who play at the fantasy world-creation game. Frank Herbert is one who also has a well-developed world that makes his books enjoyable over and over again.
  - charlieok 14y ago
    I can appreciate that creating a fantasy world requires a lot of behind-the-scenes notes and bookkeeping, and that the final product readers enjoy spares them this drudgery. Few but the most obsessed fans are going to be entertained by the detritus left on the floor during the crafting of the polished product.
- NickPollard 14y ago
  As someone who has had the pleasure of reading The Silmarillion, I can attest it is a supreme work of literature and a joy to (and in my opinion, superior to LotR). In other words, people's tastes are their own. Don't let this person put you off.
- jmspring 14y ago
  Skip the first biblical section and the Silmarillion is mostly readable. It took me 2-3 passes to realize this.

charlieok 14y ago

I never read any of the Dune books, but I will not soon forget my introduction to rage comics: http://large-images.tumblr.com/post/2326144712 http://large-images.tumblr.com/post/2326144712