7 ms·

Google "working to remove" the redirect from Google Maps on Windows Phone

49 points by depoll 14y ago

kenjackson 14y ago
Something really odd is going on at Google. In this post they say: "In our last test, IE mobile still did not offer a good maps experience with no ability to pan or zoom and perform basic map functionality. As a result, we chose to continue to redirect IE mobile users to Google.com where they could at least make local searches. The Firefox mobile browser did offer a somewhat better user experience and that’s why there is no redirect for those users. Recent improvements to IE mobile and Google Maps now deliver a better experience and we are currently working to remove the redirect." When did they last test it? In any case, why did they say this the day before: "The mobile web version of Google Maps is optimized for WebKit browsers such as Chrome and Safari. However, since Internet Explorer is not a WebKit browser, Windows Phone devices are not able to access Google Maps for the mobile web." Those aren't the same reason at all. And it's not like Google is a company that should be confused about how browsers and browser engines work. And of course here is video showing mobile IE working just fine on mobile Google Maps (pinch to zoom, panning, etc...): http://wmpoweruser.com/video-proves-that-the-google-maps-mobile-web-app-is-perfectly-usable-on-windows-phone/ http://wmpoweruser.com/video-proves-that-the-google-maps-mob... This coupled with the ending of GMail EAS support, not allowing YouTube APIs, and their explicit statement they are not going to support WP8, makes me think they have a clear mission to attack Windows Phone, but may have stepped a bit too far too quickly on this one. But I think they'll find a way to exclude support in the future if they can find a way.
- nostrademons 14y ago
  I can't speak for the Maps team because I'm not involved, and I can't speak for Google because, well, I can't speak for my employer. But I've been a developer in very similar situations before, and here's what pops into my mind when I hear statements like this: The team has been pushing hard to get the new functionality out the door. They are perhaps behind schedule, nobody has yet looked at IE, and then someone finally gets their hands on a Windows 8 phone to test. It doesn't work. The product manager makes the call: cut IE support so that the Webkit version can launch on time. A redirect's put in place to avoid serving a completely broken experience to Windows 8 users, so they can at least do a search for businesses instead of having it not work. They launch, the press picks it up, and conspiracy theories start flying. Somebody pages the team, emails start flying, there's a huddle to figure out how to fix it. An engineer (or a few engineers) "donate" their weekend to fixing IE compatibility. They work day and night until the bugs are fixed, and then remove the redirect. PR makes a statement, and then another one once the problem can be fixed. Like all PR statements, they try to say the minimum amount possible to calm people down, since everything they do say will get picked apart by the press. They aren't engineers, they know only what the engineers tell them, and they say even less because whatever the engineers say will get wildly distorted as it passes from engineer -> PM -> PR -> press -> Hacker News. Just my humble conjecture, as an engineer who's been in this situation several times before at a few different organizations (both Google and otherwise). I'd think critically before reaching for pitchforks, though.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    This seems to fit with the fact that even here on HN, people were claiming that Mobile Google Maps did not work with Mobile IE10 but now(?) does. That seems like it would be easy to overlook: Block for broken version, push new version, people change UA and find the new version works in IE10M? Who knows, either way, it seems like Google would rather have more users (for data/to brag about/to show ads to) than block them out of spite for a mobile platform that is still struggling to be relevant.
  - Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
    This is a possible scenario. On the other hand I've heard first hand a story about MS devs being ordered to break an MS web property on a competing browser. The manager who gave that order now works for Google.
    - nostrademons 14y ago
      Eegads, that's depressing. I'd like to think that he'd find that engineers at Google are nowhere near as compliant as they are at Microsoft if he tried that, though. There've been times I've questioned VPs about whether their decisions really are in the best interest of users. Sometimes they explain and I'm satisfied that it really is, and other times I've just flat out refused to do it without an experiment to verify, and we run the experiment and find that it's not, and then the executive lets it drop.
    - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
      If this is to be believed as anything other than rumor and innuendo, it would be productive if you could supply the manager's name. Both to prove that it's a real person, and so that anyone in a position to do so is better able to have them fired.
      - taligent 14y ago
        You deserve to be banned for this. You don't attempt to publicly slander a person's reputation (on an influential site like HN no less) based on unsubstantiated heresay.
- Shooti 14y ago
  That shows it working fine on Windows Phone 8, not Windows Phone 7.X. Here's a video of a device running it on 7.X: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfTS1f8vqAo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfTS1f8vqAo Practically unusable. Seems like they didn't test WP8 devices before making the call for whatever reason.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- Tmmrn 14y ago
  But I still don't understand the immediate outrage. I would much prefer an approach like this: 1. Test google maps on the mobile ie. Notice it runs acceptable. 2. Perhaps publicly, ask google why they have the redirect when it actually works fine and refrain from throwing around theories and accusations. 3. Wait maybe 3-5 days for a reaction. 4. If there's no or a negative reaction, THEN create the outrage.
  - Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
    The approach you're suggesting sounds extremely naive - Google won't respond to an email, other ppl will throw accusations, etc.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Heh, that's pretty much exactly what has happened.
Posibyte 14y ago
"The same Google spokesperson said the redirection for Windows Phone users seeking access to Google Maps via IE in the browser has "always" been in place." I don't think I've ever seen this. I had a Windows Phone a few months ago and was able to browse the site with only a few problems (panning was kinda laggy and a couple other graphical issues). I was kind of supportive of Google, placing my faith with them to make the best of the situations, but the reasons they gave are disjoint, and some past problems are giving me the impression they're just attacking the platform as a whole.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sergiotapia 14y ago
The damage is done and Google has tainted their good name with consumers. This isn't just a case that pissed off developers, this is actually moms, dads, and grandmas who suddenly find themselves annoyed by Google.
- martinced 14y ago
  "The damage is done and Google has tainted their good name with consumers." Remember how many times MS did taint their "good name"? Did it hurt them? What do we have know? Moms, dads, grandmas and grandpas who thought MS was a "good name" and who hence bought Windows phones who are pissed off at Google, telling their kids / grandkids how nasty Google is. And their kids / grand-kids are answering them: "I told you to buy either an iPhone or an Android phone mom/dad/grandma" and having a good laugh.
  - azakai 14y ago
    > Remember how many times MS did taint their "good name"? Did it hurt them? Yes, it most definitely did. Many developers left Microsoft platforms for Linux and later OS X, for various reasons but including Microsoft's actions. (It was my reason.) Stories like this harm the Google brand, and that is never a consequence-free thing.
    - yuhong 14y ago
      My favorite is the MS OS/2 2.0 fiasco: http://yuhongbao.blogspot.ca/2012/12/about-ms-os2-20-fiasco-px00307-and-dr.html http://yuhongbao.blogspot.ca/2012/12/about-ms-os2-20-fiasco-...
- psbp 14y ago
  Are you kidding me?
- jxi 14y ago
  A few days of blocking an unsupported device and the damage is done? Wow, doesn't take much to do damage these days, also considering they are working on fixing it already (on a weekend). I don't see Microsoft being harmed much by all the blatant FUD anti-Google campaigns (most of which backfired). Still a whole bunch of Microsoft fanboys commenting that they'll never use a Google product again and switching too all Microsoft products following this user agent blocking news.
aphexairlines 14y ago
When will Microsoft start working to remove their arbitrary limitations on Windows Phone so that Google and Mozilla can port their browsers to it?
- doublec 14y ago
  What limitations are those? Windows Phone 8 allows native code which was a stumbling block in WP 7.
  - aphexairlines 14y ago
    You might be right -- WP8 introduces an unmanaged C++ SDK, and some people from the Chromium project are currently evaluating it: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=153802 http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=153802 The other stumbling block was a licensing issue where the Windows Phone Marketplace prohibits copyleft licenses, which prevents software like Firefox from being published there: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/02/windows-phone-marketplace-bans-the-gpl-and-the-app-store-should-too/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/02/window... That's again from the WP7 days, so the agreement might have changed since then, but if it hasn't, and if there's no way to sideload apps onto WP8, then it's a major blocker for Firefox. Opera's last statement on the matter was on Oct 1, and at that time they were still waiting to see what avenues the SDK would allow.
brownbat 14y ago
Reminds me of when Chrome was "mistakenly" classified as a virus by Microsoft: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/03/microsoft-chrome-virus http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/03/microsoft-chr... Are they breaking each others' tech in a war of plausible deniability?
cromwellian 14y ago
When it took a few months to deliver a quality Google Maps for iOS after Apple removed GMaps, the speculation was Google was withholding it on purpose to "hurt" iOS and help Android. Other speculation was that Apple was deliberately not approving it for anti-competitive reasons. The truth was neither, the reality is, quality software takes time. Look at all the hoopla over Facebook's abandonment of HTML5 on mobile. HTML5 is not write-once run anywhere on mobile, where implementations are deliberately constrained in CPU and memory, and where GPU acceleration is all over the map. To get good performance out of HTML5 on mobile, people often have to tune specifically against an OS and browser version. Sencha went through herculean efforts to tease out good performance in their Fastbook HTML5 clone. I think people should not jump so fast to nefarious conspiracy theories and give things time.
franze 14y ago
google has some other mobile unfriendly redirects in place, in my case they break http://search-by-drawing.franz-enzenhofer.com/ http://search-by-drawing.franz-enzenhofer.com/ for mobile devices. basically googles search by image feature redirects any standard search by image url to the google homepage, if a mobile device is detected. why? http://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!category-topic/websearch/google-images/2YQZwS0xtP0 http://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!category-topic/web... "Just to follow up on this, this isn't working because we haven't designed it for mobile yet (phones or tablets)." (but it would work perfectly fine, if the just would scrap the redirect)

49 points by depoll 14y ago

Something really odd is going on at Google. In this post they say: "In our last test, IE mobile still did not offer a good maps experience with no ability to pan or zoom and perform basic map functionality. As a result, we chose to continue to redirect IE mobile users to Google.com where they could at least make local searches. The Firefox mobile browser did offer a somewhat better user experience and that’s why there is no redirect for those users. Recent improvements to IE mobile and Google Maps now deliver a better experience and we are currently working to remove the redirect." When did they last test it? In any case, why did they say this the day before: "The mobile web version of Google Maps is optimized for WebKit browsers such as Chrome and Safari. However, since Internet Explorer is not a WebKit browser, Windows Phone devices are not able to access Google Maps for the mobile web." Those aren't the same reason at all. And it's not like Google is a company that should be confused about how browsers and browser engines work. And of course here is video showing mobile IE working just fine on mobile Google Maps (pinch to zoom, panning, etc...): http://wmpoweruser.com/video-proves-that-the-google-maps-mobile-web-app-is-perfectly-usable-on-windows-phone/ http://wmpoweruser.com/video-proves-that-the-google-maps-mob... This coupled with the ending of GMail EAS support, not allowing YouTube APIs, and their explicit statement they are not going to support WP8, makes me think they have a clear mission to attack Windows Phone, but may have stepped a bit too far too quickly on this one. But I think they'll find a way to exclude support in the future if they can find a way.

nostrademons 14y ago
I can't speak for the Maps team because I'm not involved, and I can't speak for Google because, well, I can't speak for my employer. But I've been a developer in very similar situations before, and here's what pops into my mind when I hear statements like this: The team has been pushing hard to get the new functionality out the door. They are perhaps behind schedule, nobody has yet looked at IE, and then someone finally gets their hands on a Windows 8 phone to test. It doesn't work. The product manager makes the call: cut IE support so that the Webkit version can launch on time. A redirect's put in place to avoid serving a completely broken experience to Windows 8 users, so they can at least do a search for businesses instead of having it not work. They launch, the press picks it up, and conspiracy theories start flying. Somebody pages the team, emails start flying, there's a huddle to figure out how to fix it. An engineer (or a few engineers) "donate" their weekend to fixing IE compatibility. They work day and night until the bugs are fixed, and then remove the redirect. PR makes a statement, and then another one once the problem can be fixed. Like all PR statements, they try to say the minimum amount possible to calm people down, since everything they do say will get picked apart by the press. They aren't engineers, they know only what the engineers tell them, and they say even less because whatever the engineers say will get wildly distorted as it passes from engineer -> PM -> PR -> press -> Hacker News. Just my humble conjecture, as an engineer who's been in this situation several times before at a few different organizations (both Google and otherwise). I'd think critically before reaching for pitchforks, though.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  This seems to fit with the fact that even here on HN, people were claiming that Mobile Google Maps did not work with Mobile IE10 but now(?) does. That seems like it would be easy to overlook: Block for broken version, push new version, people change UA and find the new version works in IE10M? Who knows, either way, it seems like Google would rather have more users (for data/to brag about/to show ads to) than block them out of spite for a mobile platform that is still struggling to be relevant.
- Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
  This is a possible scenario. On the other hand I've heard first hand a story about MS devs being ordered to break an MS web property on a competing browser. The manager who gave that order now works for Google.
  - nostrademons 14y ago
    Eegads, that's depressing. I'd like to think that he'd find that engineers at Google are nowhere near as compliant as they are at Microsoft if he tried that, though. There've been times I've questioned VPs about whether their decisions really are in the best interest of users. Sometimes they explain and I'm satisfied that it really is, and other times I've just flat out refused to do it without an experiment to verify, and we run the experiment and find that it's not, and then the executive lets it drop.
  - AnthonyMouse 14y ago
    If this is to be believed as anything other than rumor and innuendo, it would be productive if you could supply the manager's name. Both to prove that it's a real person, and so that anyone in a position to do so is better able to have them fired.
    - taligent 14y ago
      You deserve to be banned for this. You don't attempt to publicly slander a person's reputation (on an influential site like HN no less) based on unsubstantiated heresay.
Shooti 14y ago
That shows it working fine on Windows Phone 8, not Windows Phone 7.X. Here's a video of a device running it on 7.X: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfTS1f8vqAo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfTS1f8vqAo Practically unusable. Seems like they didn't test WP8 devices before making the call for whatever reason.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Tmmrn 14y ago
But I still don't understand the immediate outrage. I would much prefer an approach like this: 1. Test google maps on the mobile ie. Notice it runs acceptable. 2. Perhaps publicly, ask google why they have the redirect when it actually works fine and refrain from throwing around theories and accusations. 3. Wait maybe 3-5 days for a reaction. 4. If there's no or a negative reaction, THEN create the outrage.
- Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
  The approach you're suggesting sounds extremely naive - Google won't respond to an email, other ppl will throw accusations, etc.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Heh, that's pretty much exactly what has happened.

Posibyte 14y ago

"The same Google spokesperson said the redirection for Windows Phone users seeking access to Google Maps via IE in the browser has "always" been in place." I don't think I've ever seen this. I had a Windows Phone a few months ago and was able to browse the site with only a few problems (panning was kinda laggy and a couple other graphical issues). I was kind of supportive of Google, placing my faith with them to make the best of the situations, but the reasons they gave are disjoint, and some past problems are giving me the impression they're just attacking the platform as a whole.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

sergiotapia 14y ago

The damage is done and Google has tainted their good name with consumers. This isn't just a case that pissed off developers, this is actually moms, dads, and grandmas who suddenly find themselves annoyed by Google.

martinced 14y ago
"The damage is done and Google has tainted their good name with consumers." Remember how many times MS did taint their "good name"? Did it hurt them? What do we have know? Moms, dads, grandmas and grandpas who thought MS was a "good name" and who hence bought Windows phones who are pissed off at Google, telling their kids / grandkids how nasty Google is. And their kids / grand-kids are answering them: "I told you to buy either an iPhone or an Android phone mom/dad/grandma" and having a good laugh.
- azakai 14y ago
  > Remember how many times MS did taint their "good name"? Did it hurt them? Yes, it most definitely did. Many developers left Microsoft platforms for Linux and later OS X, for various reasons but including Microsoft's actions. (It was my reason.) Stories like this harm the Google brand, and that is never a consequence-free thing.
  - yuhong 14y ago
    My favorite is the MS OS/2 2.0 fiasco: http://yuhongbao.blogspot.ca/2012/12/about-ms-os2-20-fiasco-px00307-and-dr.html http://yuhongbao.blogspot.ca/2012/12/about-ms-os2-20-fiasco-...
psbp 14y ago
Are you kidding me?
jxi 14y ago
A few days of blocking an unsupported device and the damage is done? Wow, doesn't take much to do damage these days, also considering they are working on fixing it already (on a weekend). I don't see Microsoft being harmed much by all the blatant FUD anti-Google campaigns (most of which backfired). Still a whole bunch of Microsoft fanboys commenting that they'll never use a Google product again and switching too all Microsoft products following this user agent blocking news.

aphexairlines 14y ago

When will Microsoft start working to remove their arbitrary limitations on Windows Phone so that Google and Mozilla can port their browsers to it?

doublec 14y ago
What limitations are those? Windows Phone 8 allows native code which was a stumbling block in WP 7.
- aphexairlines 14y ago
  You might be right -- WP8 introduces an unmanaged C++ SDK, and some people from the Chromium project are currently evaluating it: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=153802 http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=153802 The other stumbling block was a licensing issue where the Windows Phone Marketplace prohibits copyleft licenses, which prevents software like Firefox from being published there: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/02/windows-phone-marketplace-bans-the-gpl-and-the-app-store-should-too/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/02/window... That's again from the WP7 days, so the agreement might have changed since then, but if it hasn't, and if there's no way to sideload apps onto WP8, then it's a major blocker for Firefox. Opera's last statement on the matter was on Oct 1, and at that time they were still waiting to see what avenues the SDK would allow.

brownbat 14y ago

Reminds me of when Chrome was "mistakenly" classified as a virus by Microsoft: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/03/microsoft-chrome-virus http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/03/microsoft-chr... Are they breaking each others' tech in a war of plausible deniability?

cromwellian 14y ago

When it took a few months to deliver a quality Google Maps for iOS after Apple removed GMaps, the speculation was Google was withholding it on purpose to "hurt" iOS and help Android. Other speculation was that Apple was deliberately not approving it for anti-competitive reasons. The truth was neither, the reality is, quality software takes time. Look at all the hoopla over Facebook's abandonment of HTML5 on mobile. HTML5 is not write-once run anywhere on mobile, where implementations are deliberately constrained in CPU and memory, and where GPU acceleration is all over the map. To get good performance out of HTML5 on mobile, people often have to tune specifically against an OS and browser version. Sencha went through herculean efforts to tease out good performance in their Fastbook HTML5 clone. I think people should not jump so fast to nefarious conspiracy theories and give things time.

franze 14y ago

google has some other mobile unfriendly redirects in place, in my case they break http://search-by-drawing.franz-enzenhofer.com/ http://search-by-drawing.franz-enzenhofer.com/ for mobile devices. basically googles search by image feature redirects any standard search by image url to the google homepage, if a mobile device is detected. why? http://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!category-topic/websearch/google-images/2YQZwS0xtP0 http://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!category-topic/web... "Just to follow up on this, this isn't working because we haven't designed it for mobile yet (phones or tablets)." (but it would work perfectly fine, if the just would scrap the redirect)