5 ms·

Actually, there is. They have larger solid state drives (or, ugh, hard disks). They have far more memory. They have fans. They have FAR more expensive CPUs

by MrFoof 14y ago

Actually, there is. They have larger solid state drives (or, ugh, hard disks). They have far more memory. They have fans. They have FAR more expensive CPUs and chipsets. They have ports and other connectors. They are physically larger, so something like machining a chassis out of aluminum is more expensive because the size of those billets is much larger. You need a physically larger display. You need more backlights. You need a bigger battery. You need a keyboard and pointing device if it's not only reliant on touch. You may even need an optical drive. The component costs are much higher. You could only sell at 700 if you wanted a nonexistent margin.

Someone 14y ago
Also, they have a hinge. Designing one that will not break down on normal (ab)use (lifting the laptop by the screen; lifting it by the keyboard; opening it by lifting a corner, exerting torque on the hinges, while some dirt has found its way into the hinge) is costly; making it not look ugly and/or feel crap doubly so. If you look at it, a tablet is about as cheap as it can get: CPU, memory, flash, display, battery, and 3 or 4 physical switches. The only real room for improvement I see is to get rid of all connectors. That means wireless charging, and Bluetooth audio, only. I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?), though, and it probably would take a S. Jobs to sell the market Bluetooth only audio.
- dangrossman 14y ago
  > I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?) My Nexus 4 has wireless charging built-in. Any tablet could have the same. The only reason more devices don't have wireless charging is that the inductive chargers cost a whole lot more than a wall plug or USB cable.
Joeri 14y ago
Hard disks don't increase the price tag over 16 gb ssd, memory is cheap. The fans, ports and connectors are all in the 400 € machines, so they obviously don't add much to the price tag. Larger display, ok, but how much more could a 13" standard-res touchscreen cost when retina ipads have 10" touchscreens? The case doesn't have to be aluminum to feel nice, there are plenty of plastic phones and tablets that feel nice that prove this for me. You don't need an optical drive. The only price drivers i see are the battery and the chipset, and possibly an ssd instead of a hard disk. I don't buy the story that you can't build nice laptops for 700€ when the BOM cost of the retina ipad is less than 300€. Anyway, there are sub-1000 touchscreen machines that are nice, like the dell xps 12, but its obvious the vendors consider touchscreens a premium feature. They're wrong. Laptops no longer have the luxury of not shipping with touchscreens, at any price point. Even apple gets this wrong, something which amazes me. Imagine someone trying to sell a tablet with a trackpad instead of a touchscreen. The very idea is ridiculous. Every reason you want touch on your tablet also applies to your laptop.
- cpleppert 14y ago
  >>Anyway, there are sub-1000 touchscreen machines that are nice, like the dell xps 12, but its obvious the vendors consider touchscreens a premium feature. They're wrong. Laptops no longer have the luxury of not shipping with touchscreens, at any price point. Even apple gets this wrong, something which amazes me. Imagine someone trying to sell a tablet with a trackpad instead of a touchscreen. The very idea is ridiculous. Every reason you want touch on your tablet also applies to your laptop. Apple did usability studies on this very issue and came to the conclusion that combining a mouse and keyboard with a touch display didn't work. The screen was too far away to make using a touch device comfortable for a long period of time. Of course, figuring out how to design software that works both with a mouse/keyboard system and touch devices is a challenge. I'm not sure Windows 8 has succeeded here. I don't enjoy the metro environment when I'm using a mouse and keyboard and I don't like the desktop when I switch over to a windows 8 tablet. I'm a bit mystified by all the hype about touchscreen laptops. The use cases for tablets and notebooks are just too different and I feel that Microsoft is making the classic mistake of trying to cram as much features as possible into a product without understanding how these devies are actually used. For one consumer confusion is likely to result with the plethora of different configurations that Windows 8 devices are sold in. This a recipe for bewilderment. I still feel that Microsoft would have been much better off developing a tablet version of windows phone 8 rather than extending the desktop down to the tablet market. Now the desktop and tablet version of windows are joined together and Microsoft won't be able to respond to changing market conditions as quickly.
- meaty 14y ago
  Why the fuck do I want to touch my laptop (or phone or whatever to be honest). It gets dirty and stops working, you end up with curled up hands, even the best ones wobble like an old person when you push on them, you can't type on the things as they are completely non tactile, the touch resolution is so bad that all you can do is finger paint badly, doesn't work with gloves on, and everything is not designed forbthe touch screen apart from metro which is just fucking horrible and the list goes on. Its like fixing a watch with jacket potatoes on your hands. I've tried every touch device out there and they are abhorrent productivity saps. I want a laptop with a normal screen. I am actually the majority non-consumer of media opinion - you know the people who use the machine to do work. The only reason we have touch screens is hype
dasil003 14y ago
It's actually pretty amazing and brilliant how Apple pivoted on the whole computer marketing spec battle with the iPad marketing. Whereas PCs are always compared on specs, Apple took advantage of the new form factor to sell the pure experience and relegate specs to the back-seat. Of course this would have backfired if iPads felt underpowered, but they didn't. An obsession with user experience and the ability to control the full stack of hardware and software made this possible in a way that traditional manufacturers had no means to compete with. Google and Samsung and (hopefully) Microsoft are now managing to claw their way back after years of playing catch up, but the iPad launch was pretty incredible. I wonder if it will go down as the high water mark and Apple's greatest achievement.
r00fus 14y ago
> They have fans. This is not a feature, it's a downside. Why should I care if this pushes up their BoM and reduces their margin?

by MrFoof 14y ago

Someone 14y ago

Also, they have a hinge. Designing one that will not break down on normal (ab)use (lifting the laptop by the screen; lifting it by the keyboard; opening it by lifting a corner, exerting torque on the hinges, while some dirt has found its way into the hinge) is costly; making it not look ugly and/or feel crap doubly so. If you look at it, a tablet is about as cheap as it can get: CPU, memory, flash, display, battery, and 3 or 4 physical switches. The only real room for improvement I see is to get rid of all connectors. That means wireless charging, and Bluetooth audio, only. I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?), though, and it probably would take a S. Jobs to sell the market Bluetooth only audio.

dangrossman 14y ago
> I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?) My Nexus 4 has wireless charging built-in. Any tablet could have the same. The only reason more devices don't have wireless charging is that the inductive chargers cost a whole lot more than a wall plug or USB cable.

Joeri 14y ago

Hard disks don't increase the price tag over 16 gb ssd, memory is cheap. The fans, ports and connectors are all in the 400 € machines, so they obviously don't add much to the price tag. Larger display, ok, but how much more could a 13" standard-res touchscreen cost when retina ipads have 10" touchscreens? The case doesn't have to be aluminum to feel nice, there are plenty of plastic phones and tablets that feel nice that prove this for me. You don't need an optical drive. The only price drivers i see are the battery and the chipset, and possibly an ssd instead of a hard disk. I don't buy the story that you can't build nice laptops for 700€ when the BOM cost of the retina ipad is less than 300€. Anyway, there are sub-1000 touchscreen machines that are nice, like the dell xps 12, but its obvious the vendors consider touchscreens a premium feature. They're wrong. Laptops no longer have the luxury of not shipping with touchscreens, at any price point. Even apple gets this wrong, something which amazes me. Imagine someone trying to sell a tablet with a trackpad instead of a touchscreen. The very idea is ridiculous. Every reason you want touch on your tablet also applies to your laptop.

cpleppert 14y ago
>>Anyway, there are sub-1000 touchscreen machines that are nice, like the dell xps 12, but its obvious the vendors consider touchscreens a premium feature. They're wrong. Laptops no longer have the luxury of not shipping with touchscreens, at any price point. Even apple gets this wrong, something which amazes me. Imagine someone trying to sell a tablet with a trackpad instead of a touchscreen. The very idea is ridiculous. Every reason you want touch on your tablet also applies to your laptop. Apple did usability studies on this very issue and came to the conclusion that combining a mouse and keyboard with a touch display didn't work. The screen was too far away to make using a touch device comfortable for a long period of time. Of course, figuring out how to design software that works both with a mouse/keyboard system and touch devices is a challenge. I'm not sure Windows 8 has succeeded here. I don't enjoy the metro environment when I'm using a mouse and keyboard and I don't like the desktop when I switch over to a windows 8 tablet. I'm a bit mystified by all the hype about touchscreen laptops. The use cases for tablets and notebooks are just too different and I feel that Microsoft is making the classic mistake of trying to cram as much features as possible into a product without understanding how these devies are actually used. For one consumer confusion is likely to result with the plethora of different configurations that Windows 8 devices are sold in. This a recipe for bewilderment. I still feel that Microsoft would have been much better off developing a tablet version of windows phone 8 rather than extending the desktop down to the tablet market. Now the desktop and tablet version of windows are joined together and Microsoft won't be able to respond to changing market conditions as quickly.
meaty 14y ago
Why the fuck do I want to touch my laptop (or phone or whatever to be honest). It gets dirty and stops working, you end up with curled up hands, even the best ones wobble like an old person when you push on them, you can't type on the things as they are completely non tactile, the touch resolution is so bad that all you can do is finger paint badly, doesn't work with gloves on, and everything is not designed forbthe touch screen apart from metro which is just fucking horrible and the list goes on. Its like fixing a watch with jacket potatoes on your hands. I've tried every touch device out there and they are abhorrent productivity saps. I want a laptop with a normal screen. I am actually the majority non-consumer of media opinion - you know the people who use the machine to do work. The only reason we have touch screens is hype

dasil003 14y ago

It's actually pretty amazing and brilliant how Apple pivoted on the whole computer marketing spec battle with the iPad marketing. Whereas PCs are always compared on specs, Apple took advantage of the new form factor to sell the pure experience and relegate specs to the back-seat. Of course this would have backfired if iPads felt underpowered, but they didn't. An obsession with user experience and the ability to control the full stack of hardware and software made this possible in a way that traditional manufacturers had no means to compete with. Google and Samsung and (hopefully) Microsoft are now managing to claw their way back after years of playing catch up, but the iPad launch was pretty incredible. I wonder if it will go down as the high water mark and Apple's greatest achievement.

r00fus 14y ago

> They have fans. This is not a feature, it's a downside. Why should I care if this pushes up their BoM and reduces their margin?