5 ms·

I don't buy the notion that people willingly pay 700 € for an ipad (plenty of people going for a higher model), but would reject a 700 € price tag for a touch-e

by Joeri 14y ago

I don't buy the notion that people willingly pay 700 € for an ipad (plenty of people going for a higher model), but would reject a 700 € price tag for a touch-enabled laptop. The basic problem in my opinion is that if you spend 400 € you're ok with plasticky rubbish, but if you spend 700 € you want to have a quality product. The 700 € laptops feel just as bulky and plasticky as the 400 € laptops, so nobody buys them, especially since most of them don't even have touchscreens. The solution is not for prices to go down, it's for build quality in the sub-1000 segment to go up. If a 499€ retina ipad can feel great in your hands, then there is no excuse for the fact that the cheapest windows 8 touch laptops that feel nice in your hands have 4 digit price tags.

officemonkey 14y ago
My sister and I bought my mother an iPad mini instead of Nexus 7 or Kindle Fire. I knew it was more expensive, but I wanted to make sure that my 70-year old mother was going to have a positive experience, and I knew that I could provide her with support for iOS device based on my knowledge of the iPhone and iPad. Meanwhile, I built a new PC and installed Windows 8. And it's a clusterfuck. They're so insistent on forcing the Metro UI on me, and it is so disorienting, that it took me 10 minutes to find the "normal" Windows desktop. The welcome to Windows 8 walkthrough was useless. Folks who just want to use Windows will be pissed. Folks who want an iPad experience will be underwhelmed. Frankly, I'm very happy with Windows 8 under the hood, I just don't think my mom would be.
- skymt 14y ago
  My mom recently bought a Windows 8 laptop, and she seems happy with it. She's a non-technical but experienced Windows user. Here's the entire Windows 8 tutorial I gave: "This is the start screen; it replaced the start menu. To get to the regular desktop, hit the Windows key. To get back to the start screen, hit the Windows key again. To run a program, either find and click on its tile or just start typing to search for it." That's actually all it took; she worked the rest out on her own. I guess the ease of the transition depends on how well the user can acclimate to visual UI changes, even if the underlying interaction patterns haven't significantly changed.
  - adam74 14y ago
    You actually need to press windows-D to get to the desktop or click the desktop tile. After you on the desktop you can go back and forth between the two by hitting the windows key.
    - skymt 14y ago
      Thanks, that's good to know. I've never run into that quirk because the first thing I do on login is run some desktop app.
- kenjackson 14y ago
  I got my parents an all in one Toshiba for Xmas. It actually shipped with Win7, but I upgraded it to win8 before giving it to them (was much cheaper this way). I gave them a brief walkthrough and they love it. I was surprised at how much they took to the free Xbox music streaming, as they never used Pandora in the past. They're not power users so I told them to stay off of the desktop except for Office (I almost wish I could put RT on it). After they played with it an hour and installed a handful of apps, I asked if I could install some of their old apps and my moms response was, "I don't want mouse apps anymore". I thought that was a success. That said I'd be hesitant moving someone to Win8 if I couldn't get 15 minutes to walk them through it. Its a strength that in 15 minutes I can make most novices prefer it over Win7, but a weakness jn that I think they may be seriously confused if I did not walk them through it.
MrFoof 14y ago
Actually, there is. They have larger solid state drives (or, ugh, hard disks). They have far more memory. They have fans. They have FAR more expensive CPUs and chipsets. They have ports and other connectors. They are physically larger, so something like machining a chassis out of aluminum is more expensive because the size of those billets is much larger. You need a physically larger display. You need more backlights. You need a bigger battery. You need a keyboard and pointing device if it's not only reliant on touch. You may even need an optical drive. The component costs are much higher. You could only sell at 700 if you wanted a nonexistent margin.
- Someone 14y ago
  Also, they have a hinge. Designing one that will not break down on normal (ab)use (lifting the laptop by the screen; lifting it by the keyboard; opening it by lifting a corner, exerting torque on the hinges, while some dirt has found its way into the hinge) is costly; making it not look ugly and/or feel crap doubly so. If you look at it, a tablet is about as cheap as it can get: CPU, memory, flash, display, battery, and 3 or 4 physical switches. The only real room for improvement I see is to get rid of all connectors. That means wireless charging, and Bluetooth audio, only. I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?), though, and it probably would take a S. Jobs to sell the market Bluetooth only audio.
  - dangrossman 14y ago
    > I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?) My Nexus 4 has wireless charging built-in. Any tablet could have the same. The only reason more devices don't have wireless charging is that the inductive chargers cost a whole lot more than a wall plug or USB cable.
- Joeri 14y ago
  Hard disks don't increase the price tag over 16 gb ssd, memory is cheap. The fans, ports and connectors are all in the 400 € machines, so they obviously don't add much to the price tag. Larger display, ok, but how much more could a 13" standard-res touchscreen cost when retina ipads have 10" touchscreens? The case doesn't have to be aluminum to feel nice, there are plenty of plastic phones and tablets that feel nice that prove this for me. You don't need an optical drive. The only price drivers i see are the battery and the chipset, and possibly an ssd instead of a hard disk. I don't buy the story that you can't build nice laptops for 700€ when the BOM cost of the retina ipad is less than 300€. Anyway, there are sub-1000 touchscreen machines that are nice, like the dell xps 12, but its obvious the vendors consider touchscreens a premium feature. They're wrong. Laptops no longer have the luxury of not shipping with touchscreens, at any price point. Even apple gets this wrong, something which amazes me. Imagine someone trying to sell a tablet with a trackpad instead of a touchscreen. The very idea is ridiculous. Every reason you want touch on your tablet also applies to your laptop.
mtgx 14y ago
They are already trying that, with what they are calling "ultrabooks". That's the best the PC manufacturers can do right now, and a lot of them are pretty close to the Macbook Air. But that hasn't helped their sales. It's only a niche market, and I think they've only sold like 25% of the amount they proposed to sell in 2012, as far as ultrabooks go: http://semiaccurate.com/2012/10/02/a-year-on-ultrabooks-are-a-worse-disaster-than-most-expected/ http://semiaccurate.com/2012/10/02/a-year-on-ultrabooks-are-...
- rayiner 14y ago
  The only one that's really close to the MBA, and arguably beats it in several ways, is the Samsung Series 9. None of the other ones hit all the high points of the MBA: battery life, thinness, weight, build quality.
r0s 14y ago
Agreed. Current laptops are simply overpriced. Apple deserves credit for really raising the bar on quality. When I can't get a notebook with a screen in parity resolution to my phone for less than $1000USD, the market is skewed. From the article: > Now consumers expect to pay next to nothing for a Windows PC This is a correction in inflated prices.

by Joeri 14y ago

officemonkey 14y ago

My sister and I bought my mother an iPad mini instead of Nexus 7 or Kindle Fire. I knew it was more expensive, but I wanted to make sure that my 70-year old mother was going to have a positive experience, and I knew that I could provide her with support for iOS device based on my knowledge of the iPhone and iPad. Meanwhile, I built a new PC and installed Windows 8. And it's a clusterfuck. They're so insistent on forcing the Metro UI on me, and it is so disorienting, that it took me 10 minutes to find the "normal" Windows desktop. The welcome to Windows 8 walkthrough was useless. Folks who just want to use Windows will be pissed. Folks who want an iPad experience will be underwhelmed. Frankly, I'm very happy with Windows 8 under the hood, I just don't think my mom would be.

skymt 14y ago
My mom recently bought a Windows 8 laptop, and she seems happy with it. She's a non-technical but experienced Windows user. Here's the entire Windows 8 tutorial I gave: "This is the start screen; it replaced the start menu. To get to the regular desktop, hit the Windows key. To get back to the start screen, hit the Windows key again. To run a program, either find and click on its tile or just start typing to search for it." That's actually all it took; she worked the rest out on her own. I guess the ease of the transition depends on how well the user can acclimate to visual UI changes, even if the underlying interaction patterns haven't significantly changed.
- adam74 14y ago
  You actually need to press windows-D to get to the desktop or click the desktop tile. After you on the desktop you can go back and forth between the two by hitting the windows key.
  - skymt 14y ago
    Thanks, that's good to know. I've never run into that quirk because the first thing I do on login is run some desktop app.
kenjackson 14y ago
I got my parents an all in one Toshiba for Xmas. It actually shipped with Win7, but I upgraded it to win8 before giving it to them (was much cheaper this way). I gave them a brief walkthrough and they love it. I was surprised at how much they took to the free Xbox music streaming, as they never used Pandora in the past. They're not power users so I told them to stay off of the desktop except for Office (I almost wish I could put RT on it). After they played with it an hour and installed a handful of apps, I asked if I could install some of their old apps and my moms response was, "I don't want mouse apps anymore". I thought that was a success. That said I'd be hesitant moving someone to Win8 if I couldn't get 15 minutes to walk them through it. Its a strength that in 15 minutes I can make most novices prefer it over Win7, but a weakness jn that I think they may be seriously confused if I did not walk them through it.

MrFoof 14y ago

Actually, there is. They have larger solid state drives (or, ugh, hard disks). They have far more memory. They have fans. They have FAR more expensive CPUs and chipsets. They have ports and other connectors. They are physically larger, so something like machining a chassis out of aluminum is more expensive because the size of those billets is much larger. You need a physically larger display. You need more backlights. You need a bigger battery. You need a keyboard and pointing device if it's not only reliant on touch. You may even need an optical drive. The component costs are much higher. You could only sell at 700 if you wanted a nonexistent margin.

Someone 14y ago
Also, they have a hinge. Designing one that will not break down on normal (ab)use (lifting the laptop by the screen; lifting it by the keyboard; opening it by lifting a corner, exerting torque on the hinges, while some dirt has found its way into the hinge) is costly; making it not look ugly and/or feel crap doubly so. If you look at it, a tablet is about as cheap as it can get: CPU, memory, flash, display, battery, and 3 or 4 physical switches. The only real room for improvement I see is to get rid of all connectors. That means wireless charging, and Bluetooth audio, only. I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?), though, and it probably would take a S. Jobs to sell the market Bluetooth only audio.
- dangrossman 14y ago
  > I am not sure the technology is ready for wireless charging (can it be made small enough?) My Nexus 4 has wireless charging built-in. Any tablet could have the same. The only reason more devices don't have wireless charging is that the inductive chargers cost a whole lot more than a wall plug or USB cable.
Joeri 14y ago
Hard disks don't increase the price tag over 16 gb ssd, memory is cheap. The fans, ports and connectors are all in the 400 € machines, so they obviously don't add much to the price tag. Larger display, ok, but how much more could a 13" standard-res touchscreen cost when retina ipads have 10" touchscreens? The case doesn't have to be aluminum to feel nice, there are plenty of plastic phones and tablets that feel nice that prove this for me. You don't need an optical drive. The only price drivers i see are the battery and the chipset, and possibly an ssd instead of a hard disk. I don't buy the story that you can't build nice laptops for 700€ when the BOM cost of the retina ipad is less than 300€. Anyway, there are sub-1000 touchscreen machines that are nice, like the dell xps 12, but its obvious the vendors consider touchscreens a premium feature. They're wrong. Laptops no longer have the luxury of not shipping with touchscreens, at any price point. Even apple gets this wrong, something which amazes me. Imagine someone trying to sell a tablet with a trackpad instead of a touchscreen. The very idea is ridiculous. Every reason you want touch on your tablet also applies to your laptop.

mtgx 14y ago

They are already trying that, with what they are calling "ultrabooks". That's the best the PC manufacturers can do right now, and a lot of them are pretty close to the Macbook Air. But that hasn't helped their sales. It's only a niche market, and I think they've only sold like 25% of the amount they proposed to sell in 2012, as far as ultrabooks go: http://semiaccurate.com/2012/10/02/a-year-on-ultrabooks-are-a-worse-disaster-than-most-expected/ http://semiaccurate.com/2012/10/02/a-year-on-ultrabooks-are-...

rayiner 14y ago
The only one that's really close to the MBA, and arguably beats it in several ways, is the Samsung Series 9. None of the other ones hit all the high points of the MBA: battery life, thinness, weight, build quality.

r0s 14y ago

Agreed. Current laptops are simply overpriced. Apple deserves credit for really raising the bar on quality. When I can't get a notebook with a screen in parity resolution to my phone for less than $1000USD, the market is skewed. From the article: > Now consumers expect to pay next to nothing for a Windows PC This is a correction in inflated prices.