5 ms·

> Relationships are two-way streets and the man is not the sole arbitrer of tying the knot. This is true, but from what I've seen in these multiyear LTRs, the

> Relationships are two-way streets and the man is not the sole arbitrer of tying the knot. This is true, but from what I've seen in these multiyear LTRs, the woman wants to get married, the man wants to keep his options open (or, "doesn't want to make a mistake"). I've never seen the reverse scenario in an extended relationship. If Jacob's girlfriends didn't actually care about getting married and settling down, then I agree there's nothing to fault Jacob for particularly. My guess is that a woman who sticks with a guy five years typically wants to get married, but you're right that I don't know, and we may be back to me not understanding the younger generation. > The people whom you know who got married after 2-5 years...can you, or they, say that who they matched up with and vowed "till death do we part" was conclusively the best person for them in existence? Of course not, but what kind of wacky standard is that anyway? That's an idea for teenage girls who haven't gotten over their Disney Princess movies, not mature adults. > Right now, it is strange to me when friends don't have the intent to eventually marry...but I grew up with that being the status quo. The generation entering adulthood now did not and so it seems impossible to think that e-dating had (or will have) no impact on how we perceive and carry out relationships. Oh, the new generation will muddle through somehow, I'm sure of that. But from what I've seen, I am skeptical that these ever cooler, ever more casual notions of romance and partnership are actually improvements for the people practicing them.

rgrieselhuber 14y ago
I think that many men feel that the risks are much higher for men (at least in the US) when it comes to marriage and making a mistake.
- mattchew 14y ago
  Well, there is something to this. If I were single, I'd want to be pretty cautious myself. That said, I think not wanting to make a mistake, and not wanting to make a decision, are two different things. If you're with someone who wants to get married, there comes a point where you should make up your mind one way or the other.
  - ownagefool 14y ago
    I've just recently had a 4 year relationship end on me here (28, male, UK). She wanted marriage and kids but I did not. There were three key reasons for this in my mind. * I was always fairly sure it was love but I was never sure I could put up with her in the long term (whether thats her fault or mine isn't really the point). * I had a lot more to lose than her by entering into a marriage and even being in a relationship and separating was a fairly large financial burden on my part. * I don't really feel I'm ready for either thing, though maybe I'd consider marriage if I felt the relationship was right. You're attitude appears to be that because I worked at my relationship, but didn't commit the rest of my life to it, that I am not a catch. Maybe its true but its not how I feel about the situation. Its fair to say that it could have ended sooner, but just because you think your relationship isn't going to work, doesn't mean you stop loving that person and want to give up.
    - mattchew 14y ago
      What you say is understandable. Your first bullet point made me chuckle. I'm not out to bash you personally. If you or your girlfriend had entered the relationship with the intention of either committing or moving on, and (let's suppose) ended the relationship after one or two years instead of four, do you think that would have been a better outcome for either of you?
      - ownagefool 14y ago
        It depends. If you feel its all about the destination then splitting after 2 years would be less of a waste of time than 4. If its the journey then that doesn't matter and much of the time we spent together was well spend, both because they were good times and because we both learned about ourselves. Also whilst I understand that my first point plays into what you said, it's only that way if you look at it from an extreme bias. It could be that I am at fault but equally my concerns about my partner could actually be legitimate. Something in the middle perhaps? You just don't know. Its hard enough for friends and family to get the full picture never mind a random person on the Internet. What I will say is relationships from my experience are heavily bias towards woman. Apparently men are supposed to shower them with gifts, ensure their quality of life (so that the woman can do anything she desires) and essentially jump whenever told. In exchange they will give you sex... sometimes... when they feel like it, which amounts to less than once a month usually. Don't forget though, I woman can do anything that a man can do, so they're not your servants, make your own bloody sandwich and make her one too. Now I'm not trying to say the typical gender roles are what a relationship is all above, far from it. But its a lot easier to illustrate how it can often be all take and little give from one side on the basis of her not performaing her typical gender role while expecting you to do so.. I'm not going to sit here and say all woman are like that either. I'm sure theres some fantastic woman our there and I hope to one day meet one, but blaming either men or woman exclusively isn't something I buy into. Finally despite my break up being a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, I still think the likely situation would have been being a divorcee with a bunch of kids I can't see, again, unless I learns to jump on command. Maybe if I was a good little soldier it wouldn't have got that far, but then I'm sure sure I'd have enjoyed life anymore. Either way at this point I don't care whos fault it was. We all have blank spots we'll unlikely ever be able to see anyway.
randomdata 14y ago
Anecdotally, I have two close male friends who want to get married, but their female partners do not.
- mattchew 14y ago
  I'm interested in anecdotes. Are these long term relationships? I've seen cases where the guy seems to want to rush into marriage quickly and the woman backs away, but never an LTR with the roles tilted that way.
adrianhoward 14y ago
My guess is that a woman who sticks with a guy five years typically wants to get married, but you're right that I don't know, and we may be back to me not understanding the younger generation. This may, of course, be a UK/US thang... but... My partner and I have been together 17 years. Neither of us want to get married (discussed previously at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4832058 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4832058). Couple of great friends of mine (who I introduced) have been together 24 years. Two kids. Not married. We both have bog standard monogamous relationships and are very happy thank you very much. Neither of us are into any of that new-fangled poly/open stuff ;-) I know a stack of other couples - mostly a bit younger that me I admit - that are in long term monogamous relationships where neither want to get married. Several folk I know who have got married have only done to make some legal stuff easier for the kids, or to deal with immigration hassles (they still want to be together - but the marriage bit was just legal hoop jumping). I don't know about the younger generation (at 49 & 43 I'm not sure my partner and I count ;-) but for me, anyway, "committed monogamous relationship" does not necessarily imply any eagerness to get married.
- mattchew 14y ago
  If people stop having legal/religious marriages, but mostly end up in long term common law marriages (do you have that term in the UK?), I don't see that as a very important difference. The quality of the relationship matters more than the label you attach to it. That's not really what I perceive the trend to be, though (here on the US side). It looks to me more like an unwillingness to permanently commit to another person at all, and an aversion to taking on the responsibilities of raising a family. The Atlantic article called Jacob a manchild, which is a term I don't think we had such a need for when I was growing up. (By the way I'm only early 40s myself--but boy do I feel out of step with the world these last few years.)
- rm445 14y ago
  The qualitative difference with the 17 and 24-year relationships is that they're ongoing. The implication is that some people pair for life, with the wedding not being the critical factor, while someone with a string of few-year relationships might have some quite a different view on relationships, a drifter of sorts. (Or, they might just be unlucky). That 'drifter' would be strongly inconvenienced by forming and dissolving marriages every few years. So one way to indicate by the 5-year stage you are not that way inclined and that you are committed to your current relationship is to tie the knot. The signal only works one way - the two of you having chosen not to marry doesn't imply anything (in the strict logical sense).

rgrieselhuber 14y ago

I think that many men feel that the risks are much higher for men (at least in the US) when it comes to marriage and making a mistake.

mattchew 14y ago
Well, there is something to this. If I were single, I'd want to be pretty cautious myself. That said, I think not wanting to make a mistake, and not wanting to make a decision, are two different things. If you're with someone who wants to get married, there comes a point where you should make up your mind one way or the other.
- ownagefool 14y ago
  I've just recently had a 4 year relationship end on me here (28, male, UK). She wanted marriage and kids but I did not. There were three key reasons for this in my mind. * I was always fairly sure it was love but I was never sure I could put up with her in the long term (whether thats her fault or mine isn't really the point). * I had a lot more to lose than her by entering into a marriage and even being in a relationship and separating was a fairly large financial burden on my part. * I don't really feel I'm ready for either thing, though maybe I'd consider marriage if I felt the relationship was right. You're attitude appears to be that because I worked at my relationship, but didn't commit the rest of my life to it, that I am not a catch. Maybe its true but its not how I feel about the situation. Its fair to say that it could have ended sooner, but just because you think your relationship isn't going to work, doesn't mean you stop loving that person and want to give up.
  - mattchew 14y ago
    What you say is understandable. Your first bullet point made me chuckle. I'm not out to bash you personally. If you or your girlfriend had entered the relationship with the intention of either committing or moving on, and (let's suppose) ended the relationship after one or two years instead of four, do you think that would have been a better outcome for either of you?
    - ownagefool 14y ago
      It depends. If you feel its all about the destination then splitting after 2 years would be less of a waste of time than 4. If its the journey then that doesn't matter and much of the time we spent together was well spend, both because they were good times and because we both learned about ourselves. Also whilst I understand that my first point plays into what you said, it's only that way if you look at it from an extreme bias. It could be that I am at fault but equally my concerns about my partner could actually be legitimate. Something in the middle perhaps? You just don't know. Its hard enough for friends and family to get the full picture never mind a random person on the Internet. What I will say is relationships from my experience are heavily bias towards woman. Apparently men are supposed to shower them with gifts, ensure their quality of life (so that the woman can do anything she desires) and essentially jump whenever told. In exchange they will give you sex... sometimes... when they feel like it, which amounts to less than once a month usually. Don't forget though, I woman can do anything that a man can do, so they're not your servants, make your own bloody sandwich and make her one too. Now I'm not trying to say the typical gender roles are what a relationship is all above, far from it. But its a lot easier to illustrate how it can often be all take and little give from one side on the basis of her not performaing her typical gender role while expecting you to do so.. I'm not going to sit here and say all woman are like that either. I'm sure theres some fantastic woman our there and I hope to one day meet one, but blaming either men or woman exclusively isn't something I buy into. Finally despite my break up being a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, I still think the likely situation would have been being a divorcee with a bunch of kids I can't see, again, unless I learns to jump on command. Maybe if I was a good little soldier it wouldn't have got that far, but then I'm sure sure I'd have enjoyed life anymore. Either way at this point I don't care whos fault it was. We all have blank spots we'll unlikely ever be able to see anyway.

randomdata 14y ago

Anecdotally, I have two close male friends who want to get married, but their female partners do not.

mattchew 14y ago
I'm interested in anecdotes. Are these long term relationships? I've seen cases where the guy seems to want to rush into marriage quickly and the woman backs away, but never an LTR with the roles tilted that way.

adrianhoward 14y ago

My guess is that a woman who sticks with a guy five years typically wants to get married, but you're right that I don't know, and we may be back to me not understanding the younger generation. This may, of course, be a UK/US thang... but... My partner and I have been together 17 years. Neither of us want to get married (discussed previously at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4832058 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4832058). Couple of great friends of mine (who I introduced) have been together 24 years. Two kids. Not married. We both have bog standard monogamous relationships and are very happy thank you very much. Neither of us are into any of that new-fangled poly/open stuff ;-) I know a stack of other couples - mostly a bit younger that me I admit - that are in long term monogamous relationships where neither want to get married. Several folk I know who have got married have only done to make some legal stuff easier for the kids, or to deal with immigration hassles (they still want to be together - but the marriage bit was just legal hoop jumping). I don't know about the younger generation (at 49 & 43 I'm not sure my partner and I count ;-) but for me, anyway, "committed monogamous relationship" does not necessarily imply any eagerness to get married.

mattchew 14y ago
If people stop having legal/religious marriages, but mostly end up in long term common law marriages (do you have that term in the UK?), I don't see that as a very important difference. The quality of the relationship matters more than the label you attach to it. That's not really what I perceive the trend to be, though (here on the US side). It looks to me more like an unwillingness to permanently commit to another person at all, and an aversion to taking on the responsibilities of raising a family. The Atlantic article called Jacob a manchild, which is a term I don't think we had such a need for when I was growing up. (By the way I'm only early 40s myself--but boy do I feel out of step with the world these last few years.)
rm445 14y ago
The qualitative difference with the 17 and 24-year relationships is that they're ongoing. The implication is that some people pair for life, with the wedding not being the critical factor, while someone with a string of few-year relationships might have some quite a different view on relationships, a drifter of sorts. (Or, they might just be unlucky). That 'drifter' would be strongly inconvenienced by forming and dissolving marriages every few years. So one way to indicate by the 5-year stage you are not that way inclined and that you are committed to your current relationship is to tie the knot. The signal only works one way - the two of you having chosen not to marry doesn't imply anything (in the strict logical sense).