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> I sometimes felt angry about how we were treated until one day I realized that they made a great parental sacrifice, exchanging their own popularity for our p

by dos1 14y ago

> I sometimes felt angry about how we were treated until one day I realized that they made a great parental sacrifice, exchanging their own popularity for our potential. This is the best line I've read in a comment here in some time. I had this same epiphany once I went to college. My father and I had never really gotten along. I had tremendous respect for him (and a mild bit of fear), but I never really "liked" him. He preached personal responsibility and hard work. Over and over. When I was in karate as a 10 year old, we would work in the basement for hours every night. Perfecting every move, learning all the forms. He would sit there and critique. I hated it. I won a lot of trophies in competitions as a child, but I never cared. There was no praise for winning. I hated the constant practice, the drilling, the ceaseless work. As I got older I realized the message he instilled. If you want to excel at something, this is what it takes. This is the amount of effort required to be competitive. And you do things because you want to be good at them, not because someone will praise you for it. Every day of my life I'm glad he taught me that lesson. I get so tired of self-entitled whiners like the author of this article. It's not fair of course, the author never had a parent that taught them what hard work and success really looks like. The real shame is that he's probably more the rule than the exception these days.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
This is suboptimal. You ought to have some internal motivation. Someone screaming at you isn't a good way to motivate yourself. Should probably be illegal.
- shantanubala 14y ago
  What's the optimal solution, and what is "internal motivation" except a sense of discipline?
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    Internal motivation is doing things that you like. And then: doing things that you don't really like that much, but that allow you to progress in doing things that you do really like. This is the optimal solution.
    - whatshisface 14y ago
      And then 90% of the world population only plays computer games.
      - guard-of-terra 14y ago
        People who play a lot of computer games tend to eighter bore themself and move to different occupations or branch into game testing, game journalism, game translation and ultimately game development. But yes, if all what 90% people want is playing computer games, that's what they should do. I just think you're off by an order of magnitude.
        whatshisface 14y ago
        The only reason people enjoy things other than computer games is because computer games aren't yet good enough. An environment created especially for the purpose of making us happy has an inherent advantage over reality. (Btw, don't forget the fact that our creative desires can also be realized in computer games.)
        guard-of-terra 14y ago
        They would not become good enough until they allow you to influence the real world (that everyone is living in) in a noticeable way. And once they do, the division between games and life disappears. They just become different interfaces to the real world.
        GFischer 14y ago
        Some do... do well enough at Poker or Magic Online, for example, and you get invited to real-world tournaments and real-world money. They're extremely dangerous because they provide real-world possibilities.
      - Radim 14y ago
        Cut back the welfare state and let natural selection regain her course... "Internal motivation" is a resultant of complex social forces, rather than some absolute immutable physical law. Btw "progress in doing things that you really like" takes on a new dimension with people who are "internally motivated" to be rapists, murderers or pedophiles. I know the GP is probably only considering this in the context of "effective parenting", and I apologize for the ad-absurdum, but I don't feel screaming at villains should be made "illegal". Nor everybody's "internal motivation" and "following their passion" universally glorified, as I often hear suggested by neo-hippies.
fideloper 14y ago
I can't find the article, which is a huge shame, but the gist of it was the difference between Asian parenting and American. Many Asian parents praise their children's effort, rather than the outcome of that effort. It sounds like your parents did half: Encouraging hard work, and not praising accomplishment, but not giving recognition for the hard work. If you have kids and find yourself with a similar attitude as your parents, I'd add in that you should praise how hard they worked, regardless of their outcome. Hope that makes sense... Also, disclosure: I'm 28, with no kids. Take any parenting advice with a grain of salt :D
- justhw 14y ago
  This sounds like the article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870411150457605...
  - fideloper 14y ago
    yes, thank you!
- potatolicious 14y ago
  > "Many Asian parents praise their children's effort, rather than the outcome of that effort." As an Asian who knows many other Asians, I found it to be the opposite. Effort was only a necessary component of outcome - and outcome is the ultimate goal. Regardless of how much (or little) effort you put in, negative outcomes are unacceptable. That more or less reflects my world view now - it's not about working hard, it's more often about working smart. If we make it about effort we leave out of the box solutions on the table. Optimize for outcome.
socialist_coder 14y ago
Same experience here. I played little league baseball as a boy and my dad would make me practice almost every day. Fielding, throwing, batting, everything. I enjoyed it about 25% of the time but for the most part it felt like "work". I remember crying a few times when I kept making mistakes and he would keep making me do it over and over until I got it. He even built a batting cage for me and I would hit hundreds and hundreds of pitches. Did I get significantly better because of all this practice? You bet I did. I had less natural talent than almost everyone on in the league but I was one of the best players because of all that practice. I saw the correlation between how much I practiced and my performance in games. And you guys are absolutely right, I didn't like my dad when he was being so tough on me. But it was for the better, and I could see that when I became an adult. It taught me that if you want to be good at something, you need to work hard, and it's not always fun. Perseverance and grit are very important. As a father to a new baby I am really looking forward to (hopefully) passing on these lessons to her when she's old enough. I guess I won't be her best friend but I suppose that's just the price you pay.
esbwhat 14y ago
There is a middle ground to this. Always praise effort, never skill. They did studies on this, if you praise children for their talent, they will do worse than if you praise them for their effort. Effort is in their control, talent is not. This doesn't mean you need your children to hate you/be super strict.
- davidp 14y ago
  If you said "results" instead of "effort" it would ring even more true. In the real world effort doesn't matter as much as results. "Trying your best" is just a means to the end of getting maximum results, and doesn't in itself earn much reward. If someone tries their best but still raises a rotten child because they're just not good at parenting, do they deserve as much praise as someone who raised the same child to be a great man or woman?
  - nostrademons 14y ago
    You don't want to praise for results because results are often out of your control. If you grow up thinking that results are all that matter and then your first startup fails because market conditions change, what does that tell you? That it was all worthless? You end up becoming incapable of dealing with randomness, and hence shy away from situations where the results may not be entirely under your control. Results should be looked at as a feedback mechanism to give you a reality check on your effort. If you gave it your all and still failed - what could you have done differently? Were you directing your effort at the things that are most important? Was it a goal worth doing in the first place? Could you have adjusted your actions to get a bigger payoff for your effort? (And the parenting example is a good one. IMHO someone who does their best at raising a child with random genetic disorders like sociopathy, schizophrenia, or Down's Syndrome absolutely deserves as much praise as someone who raises a bright genetically-endowed child to be a great man or woman.)
    - philh 14y ago
      > (And the parenting example is a good one. IMHO someone who does their best at raising a child with random genetic disorders like sociopathy, schizophrenia, or Down's Syndrome absolutely deserves as much praise as someone who raises a bright genetically-endowed child to be a great man or woman.) That's not the question he asked. You're comparing parents who face different challenges. The question was about parents who face the same challenges, and both sets of parents put a lot of effort in, but one set is good at parenting and the other set is bad at parenting.

by dos1 14y ago

guard-of-terra 14y ago

This is suboptimal. You ought to have some internal motivation. Someone screaming at you isn't a good way to motivate yourself. Should probably be illegal.

shantanubala 14y ago
What's the optimal solution, and what is "internal motivation" except a sense of discipline?
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  Internal motivation is doing things that you like. And then: doing things that you don't really like that much, but that allow you to progress in doing things that you do really like. This is the optimal solution.
  - whatshisface 14y ago
    And then 90% of the world population only plays computer games.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      People who play a lot of computer games tend to eighter bore themself and move to different occupations or branch into game testing, game journalism, game translation and ultimately game development. But yes, if all what 90% people want is playing computer games, that's what they should do. I just think you're off by an order of magnitude.
      - whatshisface 14y ago
        The only reason people enjoy things other than computer games is because computer games aren't yet good enough. An environment created especially for the purpose of making us happy has an inherent advantage over reality. (Btw, don't forget the fact that our creative desires can also be realized in computer games.)
        guard-of-terra 14y ago
        They would not become good enough until they allow you to influence the real world (that everyone is living in) in a noticeable way. And once they do, the division between games and life disappears. They just become different interfaces to the real world.
        GFischer 14y ago
        Some do... do well enough at Poker or Magic Online, for example, and you get invited to real-world tournaments and real-world money. They're extremely dangerous because they provide real-world possibilities.
    - Radim 14y ago
      Cut back the welfare state and let natural selection regain her course... "Internal motivation" is a resultant of complex social forces, rather than some absolute immutable physical law. Btw "progress in doing things that you really like" takes on a new dimension with people who are "internally motivated" to be rapists, murderers or pedophiles. I know the GP is probably only considering this in the context of "effective parenting", and I apologize for the ad-absurdum, but I don't feel screaming at villains should be made "illegal". Nor everybody's "internal motivation" and "following their passion" universally glorified, as I often hear suggested by neo-hippies.

fideloper 14y ago

I can't find the article, which is a huge shame, but the gist of it was the difference between Asian parenting and American. Many Asian parents praise their children's effort, rather than the outcome of that effort. It sounds like your parents did half: Encouraging hard work, and not praising accomplishment, but not giving recognition for the hard work. If you have kids and find yourself with a similar attitude as your parents, I'd add in that you should praise how hard they worked, regardless of their outcome. Hope that makes sense... Also, disclosure: I'm 28, with no kids. Take any parenting advice with a grain of salt :D

justhw 14y ago
This sounds like the article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870411150457605...
- fideloper 14y ago
  yes, thank you!
potatolicious 14y ago
> "Many Asian parents praise their children's effort, rather than the outcome of that effort." As an Asian who knows many other Asians, I found it to be the opposite. Effort was only a necessary component of outcome - and outcome is the ultimate goal. Regardless of how much (or little) effort you put in, negative outcomes are unacceptable. That more or less reflects my world view now - it's not about working hard, it's more often about working smart. If we make it about effort we leave out of the box solutions on the table. Optimize for outcome.

socialist_coder 14y ago

Same experience here. I played little league baseball as a boy and my dad would make me practice almost every day. Fielding, throwing, batting, everything. I enjoyed it about 25% of the time but for the most part it felt like "work". I remember crying a few times when I kept making mistakes and he would keep making me do it over and over until I got it. He even built a batting cage for me and I would hit hundreds and hundreds of pitches. Did I get significantly better because of all this practice? You bet I did. I had less natural talent than almost everyone on in the league but I was one of the best players because of all that practice. I saw the correlation between how much I practiced and my performance in games. And you guys are absolutely right, I didn't like my dad when he was being so tough on me. But it was for the better, and I could see that when I became an adult. It taught me that if you want to be good at something, you need to work hard, and it's not always fun. Perseverance and grit are very important. As a father to a new baby I am really looking forward to (hopefully) passing on these lessons to her when she's old enough. I guess I won't be her best friend but I suppose that's just the price you pay.

esbwhat 14y ago

There is a middle ground to this. Always praise effort, never skill. They did studies on this, if you praise children for their talent, they will do worse than if you praise them for their effort. Effort is in their control, talent is not. This doesn't mean you need your children to hate you/be super strict.

davidp 14y ago
If you said "results" instead of "effort" it would ring even more true. In the real world effort doesn't matter as much as results. "Trying your best" is just a means to the end of getting maximum results, and doesn't in itself earn much reward. If someone tries their best but still raises a rotten child because they're just not good at parenting, do they deserve as much praise as someone who raised the same child to be a great man or woman?
- nostrademons 14y ago
  You don't want to praise for results because results are often out of your control. If you grow up thinking that results are all that matter and then your first startup fails because market conditions change, what does that tell you? That it was all worthless? You end up becoming incapable of dealing with randomness, and hence shy away from situations where the results may not be entirely under your control. Results should be looked at as a feedback mechanism to give you a reality check on your effort. If you gave it your all and still failed - what could you have done differently? Were you directing your effort at the things that are most important? Was it a goal worth doing in the first place? Could you have adjusted your actions to get a bigger payoff for your effort? (And the parenting example is a good one. IMHO someone who does their best at raising a child with random genetic disorders like sociopathy, schizophrenia, or Down's Syndrome absolutely deserves as much praise as someone who raises a bright genetically-endowed child to be a great man or woman.)
  - philh 14y ago
    > (And the parenting example is a good one. IMHO someone who does their best at raising a child with random genetic disorders like sociopathy, schizophrenia, or Down's Syndrome absolutely deserves as much praise as someone who raises a bright genetically-endowed child to be a great man or woman.) That's not the question he asked. You're comparing parents who face different challenges. The question was about parents who face the same challenges, and both sets of parents put a lot of effort in, but one set is good at parenting and the other set is bad at parenting.