6 ms·

No, I'm not. Anybody who's tried in real life as well as online, knows what an impact these factors have, especially height, irritatingly given its arbitrarines

No, I'm not. Anybody who's tried in real life as well as online, knows what an impact these factors have, especially height, irritatingly given its arbitrariness in western society. I spent months trying online, have tried in real life, parties, bars, you name it for years. I am actually pretty good socially. Believe me, this is not for want of trying. I am not willing to join random clubs to try to meet women, as my prior probability is so low, based on previous experience, that it seems an enormous effort for a tiny probability of success. What this comes down to is the 'spark' of attraction - women's genetic design means it incorporates certain factors, including those listed above, so if they like you + you don't fulfil the prerequisites you'll end up being their friend, they just 'won't see you that way', etc.

rokhayakebe 14y ago
Allow me to tell you how wrong you are. My roomate is 6'4, broad shoulders, athletic, good looking by any standard, and he is hella funny. People thought for the longest he had plenty girls, but believe me when I say he had his fair share of trouble. Now, this will sound like a lie, but I have no way to prove this to you unless you decide to make a trip to the city of Atlanta at which point I will introduce you to my other friend. This guy is 5'5 (at the most), skinny, and by no means will you call him handsome. However from my 12 years in America, I have never met anyone who gets hotter girls, or more girls. I always ask him, and I mean always, "What do you do, really?" From my observation and what he tells me here is what works for him,1) talk to as many beautiful girls as you can (interestingly enough, you have more chance with beautiful women, I have no idea why), 2) don't be nice, 3) smell very very good (One Million or Chanel5 or Chrome Azzaro,...), 4) always dress one step above, always (my friend always looks preppy), 5) never depreciate yourself, never, ever, even as a joke, never.
- ok_craig 14y ago
  Ugh, that guy sounds gross. I'm sure he's cool in person but if one were to simply follow this strict list of items they could very easily end up turning themselves into a douche bag. Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like? More likely than not there is an element that trumps the others which your friend fails to mention: personally/charisma. Someone who has it just thinks they are "talking" and may not realize the power they have, so they won't mention it in the magic lists. But it seems to be what matters most and is by far the most difficult aspect of oneself to develop, if one doesn't already have a "good" personality naturally.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    > "Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like?" What part of the list above is worth hating? All of the qualities listed seem very morally benign. Well dressed, well spoken, to the point, confident, and smells nice. Any baggage that comes with those descriptors are your own. Nobody is making you buy the jagerbombs and popped collars part.
    - lotharbot 14y ago
      > "What part of the list above is worth hating?" On the surface, "don't be nice" appears pretty douchey. I suppose it's possible the poster just poorly communicated, and there's a reasonable concept (like "don't be 'fake-nice', be genuinely kind") hiding behind that bad phraseology. If so, it's up to the prior poster to clarify.
      - tdfx 14y ago
        > On the surface, "don't be nice" appears pretty douchey. Very true, but I think the broader point is to avoid being the stereotypical "nice guy" towards women. For better or worse, being "overly nice" or eager to please is a low-confidence move, something that does not appear to be valued by many women.
        Mz 14y ago
        Random thought: In dating terms, "nice guy" seems to equal "doesn't push for sex" and "bad boy" seems to be "is definitely looking for sex". I am wondering if what is intended by "don't be nice" is along the lines of "be up front about the fact that you are interested in sex".
        eru 14y ago
        Up front, but do not bother them with more attempts after getting a clear no. Put her into the friend-zone pro-actively, if you like her enough to hang out, or ignore her, if you are not actually interested in non-romantic activities. But move on.
- jdotjdot 14y ago
  Right, but especially given the OP, it does beg the question of if he is actually building committed relationships with any, or just taking various good looking women home.
return0 14y ago
Please don't buy into the evolutionary psychology BS. Human relationships are mostly defined by cultural norms, not genetics, or else short people would have been selected out millions of years ago. Women incorporate the same things that all of us do, our culture: imaginary (and largely delusional) hollywood fantasies about ideal romances. The truth is both men and women are equally lost in the dating game when individualistic happiness is held to be the highest ideal.
- singular 14y ago
  I'm not so sure, a woman desiring a strong man to protect them sounds pretty evolutionary. Isn't the whole pick up artist thing based on exploiting such?
- philh 14y ago
  > Human relationships are mostly defined by cultural norms, not genetics, or else short people would have been selected out millions of years ago. I think that humans are taller than we were millions of years ago. So yes, in some sense short people are getting selected out. (Though I don't have data. I'm actually more confident that we're taller than we were thousands of years ago, than that we're taller we were pre-agriculture.) 2.5% of people will always be 2σ below the norm.
  - return0 14y ago
    Sure, and males are taller and stronger than women. But one doesn't have to be the strongest and the tallest. In fact if we observe the variation in today's population the minimum viable height and strength bar seems to be quite low, and since the distribution is approximately normal, it doesn't seem like evolution favors tall people more than short. Curiously, sexual dimorphism may have something to do with our mating habits The sexes differ more in human beings than in monogamous mammals, but much less than in extremely polygamous mammals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism
    - philh 14y ago
JohnsonB 14y ago
Question: how often do you actually ask women on dates? I mean unequivocally ask them on a "date"? Empirically, I would say you are simply wrong. I know a fair number of short men who are successful with women. It's probably something else you are doing: dress, hygiene, posture/eye contact, lack of confidence (and not in a "you have to change who you are/act cocky" type of way.) I'm not asserting anything specific because I don't know you. Being short can hurt ones chances in the dating world, obviously, but do you really think all short guys just go dateless their whole lives? It's a ridiculous assertion.
- singular 14y ago
  Obviously online, I have frequently attempted contact, before reaching a stage where I could ask that, but that was the purpose. In real life, I have usually not got so far as to ask for a date, as I have been rejected out of hand before getting that far. And the friends who I wanted to go out with, I have asked out and been rejected. I don't think it's that ridiculous, for one we're talking 2 sigma out of the norm, on the short side, so that's 2.5% of the male population, and of course there are endless ways to compromise. So that leads to another point, I do want to have a relationship with somebody I find attractive, even if marginally so (I really am not all that picky), if I was to remove that restriction then I could probably do quantitively better. Perhaps many of my fellow short cohorts do that. Additionally, there are other factors, I know some short people who have done well too - good looks, a certain kind of confidence and social standing/success principally. I am very open to considering whether I'm screwing up elsewhere, however my experience, and that of many other people has been similar, and I also have tall friends who don't dress especially well, poor posture, etc. who have had endless relationships. It's a huge, huge factor.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnsonB 14y ago
    First, returns on online dating are typically abysmally low, for everyone. Online dating shouldn't be thought of as anything other than a novelty. I think I heard somewhere that being short counts against you online more than in real life because of how easy it is to dismiss someone just based on that number. Second, as I suspected, you haven't actually asked many girls out (is the number around 2-4?) This is most of the reason you haven't had success. Yes, being at a height disadvantage means that overall it will be harder to get dates that you find appealing. This fact is what you are noticing, not that you can't. You said it yourself, there are short men who can get dates they like. Good looks help, but not a requirement. What are they actually doing you're not? Do you actually have to be highly successful to appear so? No. Just looking highly presentable, fit, well dressed in ones style, and yes, confident (in your own way, not a particular type of cockiness), is enough. Even those things aren't really necessary, but they help. Then it's just a matter of actually asking women you are attracted to on dates, enough women until one says 'yes', which will happen eventually. The only real impediment is that you haven't committed yourself to dating and figuring out what works, which is a typical problem with various excuses.

rokhayakebe 14y ago

Allow me to tell you how wrong you are. My roomate is 6'4, broad shoulders, athletic, good looking by any standard, and he is hella funny. People thought for the longest he had plenty girls, but believe me when I say he had his fair share of trouble. Now, this will sound like a lie, but I have no way to prove this to you unless you decide to make a trip to the city of Atlanta at which point I will introduce you to my other friend. This guy is 5'5 (at the most), skinny, and by no means will you call him handsome. However from my 12 years in America, I have never met anyone who gets hotter girls, or more girls. I always ask him, and I mean always, "What do you do, really?" From my observation and what he tells me here is what works for him,1) talk to as many beautiful girls as you can (interestingly enough, you have more chance with beautiful women, I have no idea why), 2) don't be nice, 3) smell very very good (One Million or Chanel5 or Chrome Azzaro,...), 4) always dress one step above, always (my friend always looks preppy), 5) never depreciate yourself, never, ever, even as a joke, never.

ok_craig 14y ago
Ugh, that guy sounds gross. I'm sure he's cool in person but if one were to simply follow this strict list of items they could very easily end up turning themselves into a douche bag. Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like? More likely than not there is an element that trumps the others which your friend fails to mention: personally/charisma. Someone who has it just thinks they are "talking" and may not realize the power they have, so they won't mention it in the magic lists. But it seems to be what matters most and is by far the most difficult aspect of oneself to develop, if one doesn't already have a "good" personality naturally.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  > "Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like?" What part of the list above is worth hating? All of the qualities listed seem very morally benign. Well dressed, well spoken, to the point, confident, and smells nice. Any baggage that comes with those descriptors are your own. Nobody is making you buy the jagerbombs and popped collars part.
  - lotharbot 14y ago
    > "What part of the list above is worth hating?" On the surface, "don't be nice" appears pretty douchey. I suppose it's possible the poster just poorly communicated, and there's a reasonable concept (like "don't be 'fake-nice', be genuinely kind") hiding behind that bad phraseology. If so, it's up to the prior poster to clarify.
    - tdfx 14y ago
      > On the surface, "don't be nice" appears pretty douchey. Very true, but I think the broader point is to avoid being the stereotypical "nice guy" towards women. For better or worse, being "overly nice" or eager to please is a low-confidence move, something that does not appear to be valued by many women.
      - Mz 14y ago
        Random thought: In dating terms, "nice guy" seems to equal "doesn't push for sex" and "bad boy" seems to be "is definitely looking for sex". I am wondering if what is intended by "don't be nice" is along the lines of "be up front about the fact that you are interested in sex".
        eru 14y ago
        Up front, but do not bother them with more attempts after getting a clear no. Put her into the friend-zone pro-actively, if you like her enough to hang out, or ignore her, if you are not actually interested in non-romantic activities. But move on.
jdotjdot 14y ago
Right, but especially given the OP, it does beg the question of if he is actually building committed relationships with any, or just taking various good looking women home.

return0 14y ago

Please don't buy into the evolutionary psychology BS. Human relationships are mostly defined by cultural norms, not genetics, or else short people would have been selected out millions of years ago. Women incorporate the same things that all of us do, our culture: imaginary (and largely delusional) hollywood fantasies about ideal romances. The truth is both men and women are equally lost in the dating game when individualistic happiness is held to be the highest ideal.

singular 14y ago
I'm not so sure, a woman desiring a strong man to protect them sounds pretty evolutionary. Isn't the whole pick up artist thing based on exploiting such?
philh 14y ago
> Human relationships are mostly defined by cultural norms, not genetics, or else short people would have been selected out millions of years ago. I think that humans are taller than we were millions of years ago. So yes, in some sense short people are getting selected out. (Though I don't have data. I'm actually more confident that we're taller than we were thousands of years ago, than that we're taller we were pre-agriculture.) 2.5% of people will always be 2σ below the norm.
- return0 14y ago
  Sure, and males are taller and stronger than women. But one doesn't have to be the strongest and the tallest. In fact if we observe the variation in today's population the minimum viable height and strength bar seems to be quite low, and since the distribution is approximately normal, it doesn't seem like evolution favors tall people more than short. Curiously, sexual dimorphism may have something to do with our mating habits The sexes differ more in human beings than in monogamous mammals, but much less than in extremely polygamous mammals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism
  - philh 14y ago

JohnsonB 14y ago

Question: how often do you actually ask women on dates? I mean unequivocally ask them on a "date"? Empirically, I would say you are simply wrong. I know a fair number of short men who are successful with women. It's probably something else you are doing: dress, hygiene, posture/eye contact, lack of confidence (and not in a "you have to change who you are/act cocky" type of way.) I'm not asserting anything specific because I don't know you. Being short can hurt ones chances in the dating world, obviously, but do you really think all short guys just go dateless their whole lives? It's a ridiculous assertion.

singular 14y ago
Obviously online, I have frequently attempted contact, before reaching a stage where I could ask that, but that was the purpose. In real life, I have usually not got so far as to ask for a date, as I have been rejected out of hand before getting that far. And the friends who I wanted to go out with, I have asked out and been rejected. I don't think it's that ridiculous, for one we're talking 2 sigma out of the norm, on the short side, so that's 2.5% of the male population, and of course there are endless ways to compromise. So that leads to another point, I do want to have a relationship with somebody I find attractive, even if marginally so (I really am not all that picky), if I was to remove that restriction then I could probably do quantitively better. Perhaps many of my fellow short cohorts do that. Additionally, there are other factors, I know some short people who have done well too - good looks, a certain kind of confidence and social standing/success principally. I am very open to considering whether I'm screwing up elsewhere, however my experience, and that of many other people has been similar, and I also have tall friends who don't dress especially well, poor posture, etc. who have had endless relationships. It's a huge, huge factor.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnsonB 14y ago
  First, returns on online dating are typically abysmally low, for everyone. Online dating shouldn't be thought of as anything other than a novelty. I think I heard somewhere that being short counts against you online more than in real life because of how easy it is to dismiss someone just based on that number. Second, as I suspected, you haven't actually asked many girls out (is the number around 2-4?) This is most of the reason you haven't had success. Yes, being at a height disadvantage means that overall it will be harder to get dates that you find appealing. This fact is what you are noticing, not that you can't. You said it yourself, there are short men who can get dates they like. Good looks help, but not a requirement. What are they actually doing you're not? Do you actually have to be highly successful to appear so? No. Just looking highly presentable, fit, well dressed in ones style, and yes, confident (in your own way, not a particular type of cockiness), is enough. Even those things aren't really necessary, but they help. Then it's just a matter of actually asking women you are attracted to on dates, enough women until one says 'yes', which will happen eventually. The only real impediment is that you haven't committed yourself to dating and figuring out what works, which is a typical problem with various excuses.