6 ms·

Right, because Microsoft invented it all (OS-tech) and nobody else would have been able to produce a graphical OS in it’s place… there is a difference between a

by iboga 14y ago

Right, because Microsoft invented it all (OS-tech) and nobody else would have been able to produce a graphical OS in it’s place… there is a difference between actually innovating and making a difference and simply being there because you were able to dominate the market trough shady practices. As I pointed out these things rather happened despite Microsoft than because of it.

jacquesm 14y ago
Look, I'm about as anti MS as is possible, on a scale of 0 to 100 I'm stuck near the 100 end and nothing Microsoft or Bill Gates will do can change this. They're beyond redeeming themselves as far as I'm concerned. I routinely return mail to sender because people insist on sending me something that only a proprietary reader or application can open. I'd rather use linux and bloody open-office (or libre office or whatever they decide to call it today) because I very well remember the tricks that Microsoft pulled. And yet, in spite of all that I have no problem with crediting them with those things they actually did. I did not claim Microsoft invented it all, I did not say that nobody else would have been able to produce an alternative, I did not say it was very innovative, nor did I claim they got there in an ethically sound way. But they did what they did and no amount of living in denial is going to undo that.
- iboga 14y ago
  You are living in denial when you claim that the web would have never taken off were it not for Microsoft, especially when it was/is probably the biggest threat to the open web we now know. Every possible alternative OS would have been at least as capable of propelling the web, probably more so as katbyte points out. Your argument is about the same as telling North Korean citizens they have to thank the Dear Leader for the good things they have. Technically correct but horribly lacking in perspective.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    > You are living in denial when you claim that the web would have never taken off were it not for Microsoft Reading comprehension fail. I said that the web took off when and in the way it did in part because of microsoft, not that it would not have happened without microsoft.
    - iboga 14y ago
      > If microsoft had not shipped a couple of hundred million graphics terminals the web would have never taken off. I don’t even...
      - sbuk 14y ago
        Like it or not, Microsoft totally dominated the home computer market in the 1990's, which is when the internet began to take hold. I'm no Microsoft fan, but to deny that they has a significant impact on the adoption of the web as we know it today is extremely short sighted. I suppose that you may be too young to remember of course...
berkut 14y ago
Without a doubt MS used anti-competitive measures, but I grew up and was using their stuff during the time (late 90s), and I'm still not convinced bundling a browser made that much difference for the average person who was buying a new computer at the time. I say this because I used to help out a lot of family/friends with their computer issues, and the vast majority of them during the time were using AOL or Compuserve for their internet access which had its own browser and didn't use IE at all (until several years later when they started using it). Similarly, packages from BT (in the UK, the main phone line provider) shipped installs of Netscape, and to use it, the average user would have to use that (because they couldn't cope with the Dial-up-networking part of Windows as it was too complicated). They'd just double-click the "BT Internet" icon on the desktop, which would start Netscape and automatically dial up to their ISP. In fact, I distinctly remember trying to convert several people from Netscape to IE, and this was with Windows 98. (I remember showing them active desktop).

by iboga 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

Look, I'm about as anti MS as is possible, on a scale of 0 to 100 I'm stuck near the 100 end and nothing Microsoft or Bill Gates will do can change this. They're beyond redeeming themselves as far as I'm concerned. I routinely return mail to sender because people insist on sending me something that only a proprietary reader or application can open. I'd rather use linux and bloody open-office (or libre office or whatever they decide to call it today) because I very well remember the tricks that Microsoft pulled. And yet, in spite of all that I have no problem with crediting them with those things they actually did. I did not claim Microsoft invented it all, I did not say that nobody else would have been able to produce an alternative, I did not say it was very innovative, nor did I claim they got there in an ethically sound way. But they did what they did and no amount of living in denial is going to undo that.

iboga 14y ago
You are living in denial when you claim that the web would have never taken off were it not for Microsoft, especially when it was/is probably the biggest threat to the open web we now know. Every possible alternative OS would have been at least as capable of propelling the web, probably more so as katbyte points out. Your argument is about the same as telling North Korean citizens they have to thank the Dear Leader for the good things they have. Technically correct but horribly lacking in perspective.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  > You are living in denial when you claim that the web would have never taken off were it not for Microsoft Reading comprehension fail. I said that the web took off when and in the way it did in part because of microsoft, not that it would not have happened without microsoft.
  - iboga 14y ago
    > If microsoft had not shipped a couple of hundred million graphics terminals the web would have never taken off. I don’t even...
    - sbuk 14y ago
      Like it or not, Microsoft totally dominated the home computer market in the 1990's, which is when the internet began to take hold. I'm no Microsoft fan, but to deny that they has a significant impact on the adoption of the web as we know it today is extremely short sighted. I suppose that you may be too young to remember of course...

berkut 14y ago

Without a doubt MS used anti-competitive measures, but I grew up and was using their stuff during the time (late 90s), and I'm still not convinced bundling a browser made that much difference for the average person who was buying a new computer at the time. I say this because I used to help out a lot of family/friends with their computer issues, and the vast majority of them during the time were using AOL or Compuserve for their internet access which had its own browser and didn't use IE at all (until several years later when they started using it). Similarly, packages from BT (in the UK, the main phone line provider) shipped installs of Netscape, and to use it, the average user would have to use that (because they couldn't cope with the Dial-up-networking part of Windows as it was too complicated). They'd just double-click the "BT Internet" icon on the desktop, which would start Netscape and automatically dial up to their ISP. In fact, I distinctly remember trying to convert several people from Netscape to IE, and this was with Windows 98. (I remember showing them active desktop).