3 ms·

Worst case scenario? Your numbers seem a bit wrong. $60/hr is incredibly optimistic as is $400/mo in expenses. Think more like $10-15/hr as an english teach

by poutine 18y ago

Worst case scenario? Your numbers seem a bit wrong. $60/hr is incredibly optimistic as is $400/mo in expenses. Think more like $10-15/hr as an english teacher and $700-$1200/mo in expenses as a base. You will not be able to support yourself for a day or two a month, more like 20hrs a week and you're going to take a serious hit in quality of life from the US. Fresh graduates from good universities in Beijing and Shanghai will typically be from 2000-5000RMB per month ($4k-$10k USD per year). There are some nasty Chinese labour laws you should be aware of if you want to hire people. They are also not as good for software development positions in a startup as a graduates from Stanford or MIT, that's pure fantasy. Additionally you can't really set up a proper company in China as a foreigner the way you could in the US. There's a couple structures you can use but they take time to setup and have some tricky considerations. That being said, Beijing is good to bootstrap an Internet startup. I did it and it's going well. There's a whole host of pitfalls and it isn't all roses but still a great experience.

garply 18y ago
I've lived off of these numbers in BJ before, by splitting a 2 bedroom apartment and rarely buying anything beyond essentials. Aside from the pollution, I felt that my quality of life actually went up compared to living in the states because, although I go out to eat with friends very rarely in the US, I go out slightly more in China. Also, the women are very friendly :) We'll have to agree to disagree on the talent issue - I'm a Stanford CS grad and I've experienced no quality difference working with Qinghua CS grads. Can you explain what problems you've encountered regarding having a corporation in China? I'm also setting up a dessert cafe in BJ with a Chinese co-founder. We've registered it as a Nevada LLC and we have had to jump through a few additional hoops because it's a restaurant, but nothing related to the actual corporation part. And my software company is a Nevada S-corp - my understanding is that I'll pay taxes to the Chinese gov't for operating a company in their territory (I have yet to learn how much), but the first $80k or so won't be taxed by the US due to a trade treaty. And can you be a little more specific about the nasty labor laws? This is an area that I'm still looking into.
- poutine 18y ago
  Beijing has gotten quite a bit more expensive in the couple years that I've been there. On top of that the currency exchange rate has gotten considerably worse. Probably in total a 25% difference since I arrived in 2006. Most people reading this would not be happy at all living off of $400 per month, that's noodles for lunch every day. I'm in my late 30's and don't feel like living like a student nor having to, I spend $2k USD per month for a very comfortable lifestyle, $1k in rent and $1k on food/misc, about 25% less than what I'd spend back home. In China it is not legal to employ Chinese people as a foreigner operating a business in China unless you're a Registered Office (RO) or a Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise (WFOE). It is not legal to draw a salary personally unless you have a Z visa (not L or F), you need an RO or WFOE to get a Z. Furthermore the RO can not invoice Chinese customers, it is only an expense center (and is taxed on expenses). A WFOE requires registered capital typically between $10K USD to $100K USD depending on the business. Setting up one of the two can take several months depending on your luck with the government. As I understand it your LLC would be illegal to operate in China without either being an RO or WFOE (or a JV which is unlikely). You may be able get away with ignoring all this and many people do but if you're caught you can face stiff penalties and be ejected from China and are going to have a hell of a time getting more than $50K USD per year in or out of the country. The labour laws basically require you to provide contracts to all of your employees or face stiff penalties. There's a number of pitfalls. See http://www.chinalawblog.com/ http://www.chinalawblog.com/ for more details, there's lots of discussion. The women are very nice indeed, I'll never go back to American women...
  - garply 18y ago
    Thanks a lot for the very informative legal info. Looks like I have more digging to do. "Most people reading this would not be happy at all living off of $400 per month, that's noodles for lunch every day." I did say I was talking about ramen profitability :). I'm in my early-mid twenties and at this stage in my life am accustomed to plowing every penny into investments.

by poutine 18y ago

garply 18y ago

I've lived off of these numbers in BJ before, by splitting a 2 bedroom apartment and rarely buying anything beyond essentials. Aside from the pollution, I felt that my quality of life actually went up compared to living in the states because, although I go out to eat with friends very rarely in the US, I go out slightly more in China. Also, the women are very friendly :) We'll have to agree to disagree on the talent issue - I'm a Stanford CS grad and I've experienced no quality difference working with Qinghua CS grads. Can you explain what problems you've encountered regarding having a corporation in China? I'm also setting up a dessert cafe in BJ with a Chinese co-founder. We've registered it as a Nevada LLC and we have had to jump through a few additional hoops because it's a restaurant, but nothing related to the actual corporation part. And my software company is a Nevada S-corp - my understanding is that I'll pay taxes to the Chinese gov't for operating a company in their territory (I have yet to learn how much), but the first $80k or so won't be taxed by the US due to a trade treaty. And can you be a little more specific about the nasty labor laws? This is an area that I'm still looking into.

poutine 18y ago
Beijing has gotten quite a bit more expensive in the couple years that I've been there. On top of that the currency exchange rate has gotten considerably worse. Probably in total a 25% difference since I arrived in 2006. Most people reading this would not be happy at all living off of $400 per month, that's noodles for lunch every day. I'm in my late 30's and don't feel like living like a student nor having to, I spend $2k USD per month for a very comfortable lifestyle, $1k in rent and $1k on food/misc, about 25% less than what I'd spend back home. In China it is not legal to employ Chinese people as a foreigner operating a business in China unless you're a Registered Office (RO) or a Wholly Foreign Owned Enterprise (WFOE). It is not legal to draw a salary personally unless you have a Z visa (not L or F), you need an RO or WFOE to get a Z. Furthermore the RO can not invoice Chinese customers, it is only an expense center (and is taxed on expenses). A WFOE requires registered capital typically between $10K USD to $100K USD depending on the business. Setting up one of the two can take several months depending on your luck with the government. As I understand it your LLC would be illegal to operate in China without either being an RO or WFOE (or a JV which is unlikely). You may be able get away with ignoring all this and many people do but if you're caught you can face stiff penalties and be ejected from China and are going to have a hell of a time getting more than $50K USD per year in or out of the country. The labour laws basically require you to provide contracts to all of your employees or face stiff penalties. There's a number of pitfalls. See http://www.chinalawblog.com/ http://www.chinalawblog.com/ for more details, there's lots of discussion. The women are very nice indeed, I'll never go back to American women...
- garply 18y ago
  Thanks a lot for the very informative legal info. Looks like I have more digging to do. "Most people reading this would not be happy at all living off of $400 per month, that's noodles for lunch every day." I did say I was talking about ramen profitability :). I'm in my early-mid twenties and at this stage in my life am accustomed to plowing every penny into investments.