4 ms·

I think it's probably okay to go over on the percentages for awhile to try to correct this. You can't get women in at the bottom if their perception is this is

by gte910h 14y ago

I think it's probably okay to go over on the percentages for awhile to try to correct this. You can't get women in at the bottom if their perception is this is for men only. That said, I think more in the top of the funnel is probably the most important step.

oh_sigh 14y ago
Why do you think that? The panels are going to suffer because they aren't accessing the best talent pool, and therefore everyone is going to be worse off.
- ksmiley 14y ago
  If temporarily increasing the concentration of women panelists contributes towards permanently reducing discrimination, then it's a net gain for humanity, even if it's a net loss for panels in the short term.
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    And what makes you think that will be the case? Just because you have good intentions doesn't mean that your ideas will achieve those intentions.
    - ksmiley 14y ago
      I figured we were taking it as a given, since no one refuted it when it was implied in gte910h's post. I'll try to support the idea anyway. There was a study performed on young students, concerning their perception of STEM fields. Most respondents indicated that "techie" people are all white males in lab coats, and that the respondent wouldn't fit in well with that group. (Sorry, I don't have a link to the study. But I know I saw it in the last 8-12 months) If more women are publicly visible in tech fields, then young people's perception of techie people will swing away from "homogenous white male group" towards a heterogeneous group that is necessarily less discriminatory. This should cause a corresponding increase in enrollment by non-white non-males who would otherwise have been dissuaded from joining.
  - phaylon 14y ago
    Not only that, but in the long run 50 males + 50 females will have a larger amount of talent than 50 males + 1 female. That's a direct plus for the communities. If everyone waits for the rest of society to change, it never will. Note that I'm not saying any one proposed solution is the right one, but it is an important discussion.
    - oh_sigh 14y ago
      To that same point, 50 males + 1 female with have a larger amount of talent than 45 males and 1 female. That's a direct negative for the community. Just because you have good intentions does not mean that any random idea you put forth will achieve those good intentions.
      - phaylon 14y ago
        That's exactly my point. A larger pool means more talent. So what's speaking against working towards women having an easier time becoming part of the community and exercising their talent?
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Let's say for just a second that you've got a 4-person panel, and you've picked the 4 best panelists regardless of gender. They all end up being male (just by coincidence). If you want to make the panel more inclusive, you don't yank someone out - you make the panel bigger. Add more diversity and the session can get better. (Granted, this only works up to a certain number of panelists - I've been on a 20-person panel, which was a joke.)
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    What makes you think that talented women have different viewpoints on technology than talented men? Do talented female chemists have different viewpoints on chemistry than talented male chemists?
    - BrentOzar 14y ago
      Because technology isn't just about the software and hardware. Solutions involve three things: people, process, and technology. People from different genders, nationalities, cultures, backgrounds, you name it - they all have different inputs on the people angle of it, and that's why diversity helps panel discussions. The whole point of panel discussions is to get multiple viewpoints on issues of opinion. If you want purely subjective technical answers, that's what single-presenter-sessions are for. Panels are for the merger of people, process, and technology, and for that, diversity rocks.
    - gte910h 14y ago
      Yes. They have different life experiences, different use cases, even different cosmetic issues (for some women/most men). Technology is about helping us to live. I also think racial and national origin diversity is useful for the same reasons
      - oh_sigh 14y ago
        Every single person has different life experiences, use cases, and cosmetic issues.

by gte910h 14y ago

oh_sigh 14y ago

Why do you think that? The panels are going to suffer because they aren't accessing the best talent pool, and therefore everyone is going to be worse off.

ksmiley 14y ago
If temporarily increasing the concentration of women panelists contributes towards permanently reducing discrimination, then it's a net gain for humanity, even if it's a net loss for panels in the short term.
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  And what makes you think that will be the case? Just because you have good intentions doesn't mean that your ideas will achieve those intentions.
  - ksmiley 14y ago
    I figured we were taking it as a given, since no one refuted it when it was implied in gte910h's post. I'll try to support the idea anyway. There was a study performed on young students, concerning their perception of STEM fields. Most respondents indicated that "techie" people are all white males in lab coats, and that the respondent wouldn't fit in well with that group. (Sorry, I don't have a link to the study. But I know I saw it in the last 8-12 months) If more women are publicly visible in tech fields, then young people's perception of techie people will swing away from "homogenous white male group" towards a heterogeneous group that is necessarily less discriminatory. This should cause a corresponding increase in enrollment by non-white non-males who would otherwise have been dissuaded from joining.
- phaylon 14y ago
  Not only that, but in the long run 50 males + 50 females will have a larger amount of talent than 50 males + 1 female. That's a direct plus for the communities. If everyone waits for the rest of society to change, it never will. Note that I'm not saying any one proposed solution is the right one, but it is an important discussion.
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    To that same point, 50 males + 1 female with have a larger amount of talent than 45 males and 1 female. That's a direct negative for the community. Just because you have good intentions does not mean that any random idea you put forth will achieve those good intentions.
    - phaylon 14y ago
      That's exactly my point. A larger pool means more talent. So what's speaking against working towards women having an easier time becoming part of the community and exercising their talent?
BrentOzar 14y ago
Let's say for just a second that you've got a 4-person panel, and you've picked the 4 best panelists regardless of gender. They all end up being male (just by coincidence). If you want to make the panel more inclusive, you don't yank someone out - you make the panel bigger. Add more diversity and the session can get better. (Granted, this only works up to a certain number of panelists - I've been on a 20-person panel, which was a joke.)
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  What makes you think that talented women have different viewpoints on technology than talented men? Do talented female chemists have different viewpoints on chemistry than talented male chemists?
  - BrentOzar 14y ago
    Because technology isn't just about the software and hardware. Solutions involve three things: people, process, and technology. People from different genders, nationalities, cultures, backgrounds, you name it - they all have different inputs on the people angle of it, and that's why diversity helps panel discussions. The whole point of panel discussions is to get multiple viewpoints on issues of opinion. If you want purely subjective technical answers, that's what single-presenter-sessions are for. Panels are for the merger of people, process, and technology, and for that, diversity rocks.
  - gte910h 14y ago
    Yes. They have different life experiences, different use cases, even different cosmetic issues (for some women/most men). Technology is about helping us to live. I also think racial and national origin diversity is useful for the same reasons
    - oh_sigh 14y ago
      Every single person has different life experiences, use cases, and cosmetic issues.