4 ms·

The problem isn't really with panels. In mechanical engineering, only 10-15% of students are female. Assuming an equal distribution of students go on to become

by leoedin 14y ago

The problem isn't really with panels. In mechanical engineering, only 10-15% of students are female. Assuming an equal distribution of students go on to become notable enough for panels, a panel with any more than 15% of members being female would be unrepresentative. My understanding is that 20 years ago that proportion was even lower. If a representative panel is made up of notable people who graduated 20 years ago, even fewer of them will be women. I don't know what the statistics for computer science or programming are, but I'd imagine that they're not vastly different. I think limited female representation is a big issue in a lot of fields (including technology), but in technology the real issue is that women aren't coming in at the bottom.

gte910h 14y ago
I think it's probably okay to go over on the percentages for awhile to try to correct this. You can't get women in at the bottom if their perception is this is for men only. That said, I think more in the top of the funnel is probably the most important step.
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  Why do you think that? The panels are going to suffer because they aren't accessing the best talent pool, and therefore everyone is going to be worse off.
  - ksmiley 14y ago
    If temporarily increasing the concentration of women panelists contributes towards permanently reducing discrimination, then it's a net gain for humanity, even if it's a net loss for panels in the short term.
    - oh_sigh 14y ago
      And what makes you think that will be the case? Just because you have good intentions doesn't mean that your ideas will achieve those intentions.
      - ksmiley 14y ago
        I figured we were taking it as a given, since no one refuted it when it was implied in gte910h's post. I'll try to support the idea anyway. There was a study performed on young students, concerning their perception of STEM fields. Most respondents indicated that "techie" people are all white males in lab coats, and that the respondent wouldn't fit in well with that group. (Sorry, I don't have a link to the study. But I know I saw it in the last 8-12 months) If more women are publicly visible in tech fields, then young people's perception of techie people will swing away from "homogenous white male group" towards a heterogeneous group that is necessarily less discriminatory. This should cause a corresponding increase in enrollment by non-white non-males who would otherwise have been dissuaded from joining.
    - phaylon 14y ago
      Not only that, but in the long run 50 males + 50 females will have a larger amount of talent than 50 males + 1 female. That's a direct plus for the communities. If everyone waits for the rest of society to change, it never will. Note that I'm not saying any one proposed solution is the right one, but it is an important discussion.
      - oh_sigh 14y ago
        To that same point, 50 males + 1 female with have a larger amount of talent than 45 males and 1 female. That's a direct negative for the community. Just because you have good intentions does not mean that any random idea you put forth will achieve those good intentions.
        phaylon 14y ago
        That's exactly my point. A larger pool means more talent. So what's speaking against working towards women having an easier time becoming part of the community and exercising their talent?
  - BrentOzar 14y ago
    Let's say for just a second that you've got a 4-person panel, and you've picked the 4 best panelists regardless of gender. They all end up being male (just by coincidence). If you want to make the panel more inclusive, you don't yank someone out - you make the panel bigger. Add more diversity and the session can get better. (Granted, this only works up to a certain number of panelists - I've been on a 20-person panel, which was a joke.)
    - oh_sigh 14y ago
      What makes you think that talented women have different viewpoints on technology than talented men? Do talented female chemists have different viewpoints on chemistry than talented male chemists?
      - BrentOzar 14y ago
        Because technology isn't just about the software and hardware. Solutions involve three things: people, process, and technology. People from different genders, nationalities, cultures, backgrounds, you name it - they all have different inputs on the people angle of it, and that's why diversity helps panel discussions. The whole point of panel discussions is to get multiple viewpoints on issues of opinion. If you want purely subjective technical answers, that's what single-presenter-sessions are for. Panels are for the merger of people, process, and technology, and for that, diversity rocks.
      - gte910h 14y ago
        Yes. They have different life experiences, different use cases, even different cosmetic issues (for some women/most men). Technology is about helping us to live. I also think racial and national origin diversity is useful for the same reasons
        oh_sigh 14y ago
        Every single person has different life experiences, use cases, and cosmetic issues.
jwoah12 14y ago
From my small amount of experience, I saw even less percentage of females in computer science. By the time I got to the upper level courses in Comp Sci at UMD, I usually had 1 female classmate. Sometimes 2, sometimes none. In my 3 years of working since graduation, I can count the number of female developers I've worked with on one hand. If I restrict the sample to American-born women, that number goes to 0. I'd be interested to see some breakdowns of technology gender ratios in various countries. If some of them have a better ratio, maybe we can start to understand why.

by leoedin 14y ago

gte910h 14y ago

I think it's probably okay to go over on the percentages for awhile to try to correct this. You can't get women in at the bottom if their perception is this is for men only. That said, I think more in the top of the funnel is probably the most important step.

oh_sigh 14y ago
Why do you think that? The panels are going to suffer because they aren't accessing the best talent pool, and therefore everyone is going to be worse off.
- ksmiley 14y ago
  If temporarily increasing the concentration of women panelists contributes towards permanently reducing discrimination, then it's a net gain for humanity, even if it's a net loss for panels in the short term.
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    And what makes you think that will be the case? Just because you have good intentions doesn't mean that your ideas will achieve those intentions.
    - ksmiley 14y ago
      I figured we were taking it as a given, since no one refuted it when it was implied in gte910h's post. I'll try to support the idea anyway. There was a study performed on young students, concerning their perception of STEM fields. Most respondents indicated that "techie" people are all white males in lab coats, and that the respondent wouldn't fit in well with that group. (Sorry, I don't have a link to the study. But I know I saw it in the last 8-12 months) If more women are publicly visible in tech fields, then young people's perception of techie people will swing away from "homogenous white male group" towards a heterogeneous group that is necessarily less discriminatory. This should cause a corresponding increase in enrollment by non-white non-males who would otherwise have been dissuaded from joining.
  - phaylon 14y ago
    Not only that, but in the long run 50 males + 50 females will have a larger amount of talent than 50 males + 1 female. That's a direct plus for the communities. If everyone waits for the rest of society to change, it never will. Note that I'm not saying any one proposed solution is the right one, but it is an important discussion.
    - oh_sigh 14y ago
      To that same point, 50 males + 1 female with have a larger amount of talent than 45 males and 1 female. That's a direct negative for the community. Just because you have good intentions does not mean that any random idea you put forth will achieve those good intentions.
      - phaylon 14y ago
        That's exactly my point. A larger pool means more talent. So what's speaking against working towards women having an easier time becoming part of the community and exercising their talent?
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Let's say for just a second that you've got a 4-person panel, and you've picked the 4 best panelists regardless of gender. They all end up being male (just by coincidence). If you want to make the panel more inclusive, you don't yank someone out - you make the panel bigger. Add more diversity and the session can get better. (Granted, this only works up to a certain number of panelists - I've been on a 20-person panel, which was a joke.)
  - oh_sigh 14y ago
    What makes you think that talented women have different viewpoints on technology than talented men? Do talented female chemists have different viewpoints on chemistry than talented male chemists?
    - BrentOzar 14y ago
      Because technology isn't just about the software and hardware. Solutions involve three things: people, process, and technology. People from different genders, nationalities, cultures, backgrounds, you name it - they all have different inputs on the people angle of it, and that's why diversity helps panel discussions. The whole point of panel discussions is to get multiple viewpoints on issues of opinion. If you want purely subjective technical answers, that's what single-presenter-sessions are for. Panels are for the merger of people, process, and technology, and for that, diversity rocks.
    - gte910h 14y ago
      Yes. They have different life experiences, different use cases, even different cosmetic issues (for some women/most men). Technology is about helping us to live. I also think racial and national origin diversity is useful for the same reasons
      - oh_sigh 14y ago
        Every single person has different life experiences, use cases, and cosmetic issues.

jwoah12 14y ago

From my small amount of experience, I saw even less percentage of females in computer science. By the time I got to the upper level courses in Comp Sci at UMD, I usually had 1 female classmate. Sometimes 2, sometimes none. In my 3 years of working since graduation, I can count the number of female developers I've worked with on one hand. If I restrict the sample to American-born women, that number goes to 0. I'd be interested to see some breakdowns of technology gender ratios in various countries. If some of them have a better ratio, maybe we can start to understand why.