6 ms·

Great! Does anyone have an estimate of when full Python 3 support is expected?

greghinch 14y ago
Last line of the note is a link to the plan for full Python 3 support https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2012/aug/19/experimental-python-3-support/ https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2012/aug/19/experimenta...
- rednukleus 14y ago
  There is no date or timeline, I was wondering if this was a "Next 6 months" thing or if it will take a lot longer.
  - greghinch 14y ago
    I think the point is they don't know yet. 1.5 is intended to get the early version in front of a wide audience, shake out the issues, and then they can make a call on timeframe.
agildehaus 14y ago
"We plan to offer first-class, production-ready support for Python 3 in our next release, Django 1.6."
- rednukleus 14y ago
  What I mean is, when is 1.6 expected to land?
  - agildehaus 14y ago
    When it's done, of course!
    - rednukleus 14y ago
      Grumble...
      - yareally 14y ago
        You didn't really expect a concrete answer, did you? You can take a guess by looking at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009649 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009649
clicks 14y ago
Considering minor releases happen every 8 months or so (i.e., Django 1.6 will be released latter half of this year), I'm thinking that'll be enough time to work out the kinks for running Django on Python 3. I do want to point out that it was only last year people used to say that Django was _the_ thing holding everyone going from Python 2 -> Python 3. And now Django has made the move, -- others (Flask, etc.) have not.
- rednukleus 14y ago
  Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for.
- huxley 14y ago
  Django 1.6 wouldn't be a minor release, 1.x are major versions. You're more likely to see an alpha release of 1.6 in 8 months, the final released versions of Django have a roughly annual release schedule: * Django 1.4 came out March 23, 2012 * Django 1.3 came out March 23, 2011 * Django 1.2 came out May 17, 2010 * Django 1.1 came out July 29, 2009 * Django 1.0 released September 3, 2008 Update: Didn't read the part of Jacob Kaplan-Moss' response above where he says 1.6 could be coming in "6-9 months" and as in as little as 3 months. To which I'd say "Wow"
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
    - huxley 14y ago
      Well, dang, I stand corrected. As a Django user, I've always understood Django 1.x to follow the Apple convention with OS X numbering. To the credit of the core team, every minor release has felt like a major improvement to me.
      - takluyver 14y ago
        Many projects roughly follow 'semantic versioning'. You change the first number for a release that breaks backwards compatibility, the second number for a feature release, and the third number for a bugfix release.
zalew 14y ago
if by full you mean the whole codebase in python 3 without python 2.7 support, I guess no sooner than around 1.7 considering the deprecation scheme. currently all core code has to support both https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/django-developers/python3/django-developers/6s5VMohjeSU/6nBc9vYQbz8J https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/django-developers...
- anderspetersson 14y ago
  I would be very surprised if they deprecate python 2.7 in Django 1.7. More likely to happend when django hit 2.0. It's going to take a while until all the packages you might need for a project supports py3k.
  - zalew 14y ago
    yeah, maybe. 1.4 set minimum 2.5, 1.5 set 2.6, 1.6 will (probably) be 2.7 only. 1.7 could either stick with 2.7 and 2.0 be a py3 milestone, or it could drop 2.x and provide a py3-only codebase for developing 2.0. gotta check all the talks and announcements, I don't remember if it was decided yet. >until all the packages you might need for a project supports py3k I don't see it as a problem. most of them don't support py3 because django was py2.x. there is still at least a year or year and half to 1.7, it's a lot of time.
- jacobian 14y ago
  It'll likely be a bit longer than that. See my response elsewhere in this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009625).
  - zalew 14y ago
    I've just read your posts here, tx for the explanation. maybe you could attach some details about it here https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/deprecation/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/deprecation/?
jacobian 14y ago
So here's the deal: Django 1.5 has "full" Python 3 support, at least from a technical level. It's done, works, is well-tested. I'm planning on putting a Django 1.5 / Python 3.3 site into production later this year. So in that sense it's "done" now. However, we sorta have to hedge our bets in terms of what we recommend others do. We have a pretty serious backwards-compatibility promise, and we're not 100% certainly we've nailed down all the Python 3 APIs perfectly. There's a small (but non-zero) chance something might need to change between 1.5 and 1.6; we want the ability to make that change backwards-incompatible (for Python 3 users) if possible. Similarly, there's a small (but again non-zero) chance that there's a serious bug or three in the Python 3 support. We don't want people getting bitten. Finally, much of the "good stuff" in Django-land is actually in third-party apps, many of which don't yet support Python 3. This puts a pretty big obstacle in the way of a Django/Py3 site -- most real-world sites use a ton of third-party stuff. So to use Django on Py3 right now you'll need to make a bunch of "should I DIY this component or port it to py3 and submit a patch?" decisions. In the case of the site I mentioned up top these are tradeoffs I'm willing to make. I know Django well enough to not be worried about potential bugs or backwards-incompatibilities, and I have the luxury on this project of getting to work on py3 patches as part of the deal. Most people won't be so lucky, though, so we expect the majority of Django users to wait until 1.6 to start seriously using Py3. We don't have a firm timeline yet. I'm guessing something like 6-9 months for 1.6, but that depends on a lot of different things. It could be longer, as much as a year, or possibly even as short as 3-4 months. We'll see :)
- mahmoudimus 14y ago
  This is such a great answer. Definitely understand the reasoning here -- part of Django's strength is its ecosystem and its available third-party apps. Taking that away would certainly hinder adoption/productivity. At the same time, it's important to realize that there will probably need to be some point in the future where Django has to take a stand and firmly put down a timeline on when apps need to be migrated to stay "relevant." Maybe something like Python's Wall of Superpowers / Shame (http://python3wos.appspot.com/ http://python3wos.appspot.com/) though I know Jesse Noller has had some pushback on this website.
  - 14y ago

Last line of the note is a link to the plan for full Python 3 support https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2012/aug/19/experimental-python-3-support/ https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2012/aug/19/experimenta...

rednukleus 14y ago
There is no date or timeline, I was wondering if this was a "Next 6 months" thing or if it will take a lot longer.
- greghinch 14y ago
  I think the point is they don't know yet. 1.5 is intended to get the early version in front of a wide audience, shake out the issues, and then they can make a call on timeframe.

agildehaus 14y ago

"We plan to offer first-class, production-ready support for Python 3 in our next release, Django 1.6."

rednukleus 14y ago
What I mean is, when is 1.6 expected to land?
- agildehaus 14y ago
  When it's done, of course!
  - rednukleus 14y ago
    Grumble...
    - yareally 14y ago
      You didn't really expect a concrete answer, did you? You can take a guess by looking at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009649 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009649

clicks 14y ago

Considering minor releases happen every 8 months or so (i.e., Django 1.6 will be released latter half of this year), I'm thinking that'll be enough time to work out the kinks for running Django on Python 3. I do want to point out that it was only last year people used to say that Django was _the_ thing holding everyone going from Python 2 -> Python 3. And now Django has made the move, -- others (Flask, etc.) have not.

rednukleus 14y ago
Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for.
huxley 14y ago
Django 1.6 wouldn't be a minor release, 1.x are major versions. You're more likely to see an alpha release of 1.6 in 8 months, the final released versions of Django have a roughly annual release schedule: * Django 1.4 came out March 23, 2012 * Django 1.3 came out March 23, 2011 * Django 1.2 came out May 17, 2010 * Django 1.1 came out July 29, 2009 * Django 1.0 released September 3, 2008 Update: Didn't read the part of Jacob Kaplan-Moss' response above where he says 1.6 could be coming in "6-9 months" and as in as little as 3 months. To which I'd say "Wow"
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - huxley 14y ago
    Well, dang, I stand corrected. As a Django user, I've always understood Django 1.x to follow the Apple convention with OS X numbering. To the credit of the core team, every minor release has felt like a major improvement to me.
    - takluyver 14y ago
      Many projects roughly follow 'semantic versioning'. You change the first number for a release that breaks backwards compatibility, the second number for a feature release, and the third number for a bugfix release.

zalew 14y ago

if by full you mean the whole codebase in python 3 without python 2.7 support, I guess no sooner than around 1.7 considering the deprecation scheme. currently all core code has to support both https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/django-developers/python3/django-developers/6s5VMohjeSU/6nBc9vYQbz8J https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/django-developers...

anderspetersson 14y ago
I would be very surprised if they deprecate python 2.7 in Django 1.7. More likely to happend when django hit 2.0. It's going to take a while until all the packages you might need for a project supports py3k.
- zalew 14y ago
  yeah, maybe. 1.4 set minimum 2.5, 1.5 set 2.6, 1.6 will (probably) be 2.7 only. 1.7 could either stick with 2.7 and 2.0 be a py3 milestone, or it could drop 2.x and provide a py3-only codebase for developing 2.0. gotta check all the talks and announcements, I don't remember if it was decided yet. >until all the packages you might need for a project supports py3k I don't see it as a problem. most of them don't support py3 because django was py2.x. there is still at least a year or year and half to 1.7, it's a lot of time.
jacobian 14y ago
It'll likely be a bit longer than that. See my response elsewhere in this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5009625).
- zalew 14y ago
  I've just read your posts here, tx for the explanation. maybe you could attach some details about it here https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/deprecation/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/deprecation/?

jacobian 14y ago

So here's the deal: Django 1.5 has "full" Python 3 support, at least from a technical level. It's done, works, is well-tested. I'm planning on putting a Django 1.5 / Python 3.3 site into production later this year. So in that sense it's "done" now. However, we sorta have to hedge our bets in terms of what we recommend others do. We have a pretty serious backwards-compatibility promise, and we're not 100% certainly we've nailed down all the Python 3 APIs perfectly. There's a small (but non-zero) chance something might need to change between 1.5 and 1.6; we want the ability to make that change backwards-incompatible (for Python 3 users) if possible. Similarly, there's a small (but again non-zero) chance that there's a serious bug or three in the Python 3 support. We don't want people getting bitten. Finally, much of the "good stuff" in Django-land is actually in third-party apps, many of which don't yet support Python 3. This puts a pretty big obstacle in the way of a Django/Py3 site -- most real-world sites use a ton of third-party stuff. So to use Django on Py3 right now you'll need to make a bunch of "should I DIY this component or port it to py3 and submit a patch?" decisions. In the case of the site I mentioned up top these are tradeoffs I'm willing to make. I know Django well enough to not be worried about potential bugs or backwards-incompatibilities, and I have the luxury on this project of getting to work on py3 patches as part of the deal. Most people won't be so lucky, though, so we expect the majority of Django users to wait until 1.6 to start seriously using Py3. We don't have a firm timeline yet. I'm guessing something like 6-9 months for 1.6, but that depends on a lot of different things. It could be longer, as much as a year, or possibly even as short as 3-4 months. We'll see :)

mahmoudimus 14y ago
This is such a great answer. Definitely understand the reasoning here -- part of Django's strength is its ecosystem and its available third-party apps. Taking that away would certainly hinder adoption/productivity. At the same time, it's important to realize that there will probably need to be some point in the future where Django has to take a stand and firmly put down a timeline on when apps need to be migrated to stay "relevant." Maybe something like Python's Wall of Superpowers / Shame (http://python3wos.appspot.com/ http://python3wos.appspot.com/) though I know Jesse Noller has had some pushback on this website.
- 14y ago