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The problem isn't Keynes model. It predicts that when governments stop deficit spending, the economy slows. It says that if governments don't replenish those

The problem isn't Keynes model. It predicts that when governments stop deficit spending, the economy slows. It says that if governments don't replenish those deficits in good times they'll build unsustainable economies. The problem is ignoring the reality that at some point the government cannot issue more debt. The US government has been in structural deficit for all but a few of the past 40 years. If we look at the funny money of state and local pension assumptions there's even more stimulus. OF COURSE when that's withdrawn the economy slows. It doesn't matter if the fiscal multiplier is 0.5 or 1.5 when the government simply can't issue more debt. Multipliers matter when a government has decisions to make, when it can't issue more debt there are no decisions to be made.

natural219 14y ago
In theory, you have a good point. However, I think even at our ridiculous levels (> 100% of debt-to-gdp), there's still quite a ways to go before our major creditors stop buying US bonds entirely. If we can somehow pursue policies that could return us to constant positive growth in the next 2-5 years, then the benefits of getting there faster will give us a much greater ability to reduce our long-term liabilities.
- gph1 14y ago
  The primary dealer banks will always be a ready funding agent for the US government--why wouldn't they be? Treasuries offer a risk free place for excess reserves to earn interest. It's literally free money. It's instructive to remember that we match our deficit spending with debt issuance by legal fiat and not for any real operational reason. We could just as well deficit spend freely with no debt issuance (and no, it would not be more inflationary. Of course, treasuries are a risk free savings vehicle for the private sector and world at large, and they play an important role in managing the payments system (though not one that couldn't be replace), so I'm not suggesting that we stop issuing debt. But it's important to understand how the system works so we can stop with the silly notion that we are just scraping by on the good graces of Treasury buyers.
  - natural219 14y ago
    What's the mechanism for this spending through legal fiat? It seems to me that any spending that doesn't come from taxes or debt would probably have some adverse affects on the economy. I'm still a student of institutional economics, so I'm eager to learn more about this whole process.
    - chernevik 14y ago
      Go read zerohedge.com. There is a fair chunk of tinfoil hat baloney and traders talking their book, but they have some serious analysis on the government debt / banking / monetary system.
- chernevik 14y ago
  It sounds great. But when fiscal stimulus plays such a large and persistent role, and you're clearly nearing the end of the road for more borrowing / more stimulus, the expectation of stimulus withdrawal starts to play an ever larger role in forecast expectations. E.g. at some point businesses stop thinking about additional demand today and the demand shrinkage in the future. They start develering and stop taking chances. And the more the government counters with short-term stimulus, the more expectations anticipates the end of stimulus in the mid-term. And, "constant growth" depends on a structurally sound economy. Well, if the economy has been shaped to meet demand from a necessarily contracting customer -- the government -- its structure gets distorted. Add in the distortions from crazy federal credit policy (Fannie / Freddie). Now we have an economy that must reallocate productive resources to meet real demand -- but no one has a clue where that demand actually will be because we're so distant from the environment supporting it. tldr; 40 years of government stimulus, in various dimensions, has fundamentally detoriated the economy's ability to deliver "constant positive growth." We've gone past the point where we can outgrow the debt growth needed to fuel this government stimulus growth model.

natural219 14y ago

In theory, you have a good point. However, I think even at our ridiculous levels (> 100% of debt-to-gdp), there's still quite a ways to go before our major creditors stop buying US bonds entirely. If we can somehow pursue policies that could return us to constant positive growth in the next 2-5 years, then the benefits of getting there faster will give us a much greater ability to reduce our long-term liabilities.

gph1 14y ago
The primary dealer banks will always be a ready funding agent for the US government--why wouldn't they be? Treasuries offer a risk free place for excess reserves to earn interest. It's literally free money. It's instructive to remember that we match our deficit spending with debt issuance by legal fiat and not for any real operational reason. We could just as well deficit spend freely with no debt issuance (and no, it would not be more inflationary. Of course, treasuries are a risk free savings vehicle for the private sector and world at large, and they play an important role in managing the payments system (though not one that couldn't be replace), so I'm not suggesting that we stop issuing debt. But it's important to understand how the system works so we can stop with the silly notion that we are just scraping by on the good graces of Treasury buyers.
- natural219 14y ago
  What's the mechanism for this spending through legal fiat? It seems to me that any spending that doesn't come from taxes or debt would probably have some adverse affects on the economy. I'm still a student of institutional economics, so I'm eager to learn more about this whole process.
  - chernevik 14y ago
    Go read zerohedge.com. There is a fair chunk of tinfoil hat baloney and traders talking their book, but they have some serious analysis on the government debt / banking / monetary system.
chernevik 14y ago
It sounds great. But when fiscal stimulus plays such a large and persistent role, and you're clearly nearing the end of the road for more borrowing / more stimulus, the expectation of stimulus withdrawal starts to play an ever larger role in forecast expectations. E.g. at some point businesses stop thinking about additional demand today and the demand shrinkage in the future. They start develering and stop taking chances. And the more the government counters with short-term stimulus, the more expectations anticipates the end of stimulus in the mid-term. And, "constant growth" depends on a structurally sound economy. Well, if the economy has been shaped to meet demand from a necessarily contracting customer -- the government -- its structure gets distorted. Add in the distortions from crazy federal credit policy (Fannie / Freddie). Now we have an economy that must reallocate productive resources to meet real demand -- but no one has a clue where that demand actually will be because we're so distant from the environment supporting it. tldr; 40 years of government stimulus, in various dimensions, has fundamentally detoriated the economy's ability to deliver "constant positive growth." We've gone past the point where we can outgrow the debt growth needed to fuel this government stimulus growth model.