4 ms·

> This is what happens to people accused of blue-collar crimes, not white collar crimes. The original article is about both. > White collar crimes carry almos

by maratd 14y ago

> This is what happens to people accused of blue-collar crimes, not white collar crimes. The original article is about both. > White collar crimes carry almost no stigma unless a conviction happens. You know this from experience? > What a bunch of historically revisionist bullshit. The Constitution initially restricted the federal government, not the government in general. The states had unlimited power Are you aware that each state has its own constitution? That they are modeled on the federal one? That they enumerate the same rights and today, quite a few more? My home state of New Jersey adopted its constitution in 1776, right before the Declaration of Independence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_New_Jersey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_New_Jersey

tptacek 14y ago
Did you post that link to the 1776 NJ Constitution under the assumption that nobody would actually read it? Because it is more or less the opposite of what you claim: * It contains no bill of rights * It explicitly leaves intact the law of England * It concerns itself primarily with officeholding (available only to those with considerable fortunes for the time under this Constitution) and voting (available only to those exceeding a monetary threshold) * It establishes a freedom of religion only for Protestants (thinking this might have been some semantic subtlety of the 1770's that I didn't get, I looked into this further and found that not only does "Protestant" mean exactly what it says here, but that other states explicitly forbade Catholics and atheists from holding office at all in their 1776-1778 Constitutions). I gather you refer to the modern New Jersey Constitution when you praise the additional rights it grants. I don't think 'rayiner is talking about modern Constitutional law; something about how we resolved slavery in the 1800s suggests that maybe he understands that states no longer have unlimited power.
- maratd 14y ago
  > Did you post that link to the 1776 NJ Constitution under the assumption that nobody would actually read it? The link I posted doesn't contain the original constitution. Here is the link to it: http://www.state.nj.us/njfacts/njdoc10a.htm http://www.state.nj.us/njfacts/njdoc10a.htm > It contains no bill of rights Neither does the federal one. The bill of rights are actually amendments, which are not included in the main body of text. > It explicitly leaves intact the law of England You mean common law? What's your point? > It concerns itself primarily with officeholding So did the federal one? Did you even bother reading the US federal constitution? > It establishes a freedom of religion only for Protestants This is a blatant falsehood. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you can't understand the text, then keep your mouth shut, instead of spreading nonsense. Here is the only paragraph that makes a reference to Protestants: That there shall be no establishment of any one religious sect in this Province, in preference to another; and that no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right, merely on account of his religious principles; but that all persons, professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect, who shall demean themselves peaceably under the government, as hereby established, shall be capable of being elected into any office of profit or trust, or being a member of either branch of the Legislature, and shall fully and freely enjoy every privilege and immunity, enjoyed by others their fellow subjects. It's fairly plain and obvious, but clearly I have to explain it to you. Protestants were heavily discriminated against in the Old World. That's why they left in large numbers. This passage makes clear that they shall not be discriminated against and "freely enjoy every privilege and immunity, enjoyed by others" ...
  - tptacek 14y ago
    That is what I assumed to have been the case too; cursory research suggests, no, it means what it says. All persons professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect shall be capable of being elected. The NC Constitution, ratified contemporaneously, is even more explicit. So, while I am of course willing to be wrong (I'm an Illinoisan and wasn't taught the NJ Constitution in grade school as I assume you were), I'm not with you yet. The rest: if you're suggesting the Bill of Rights isn't an important and defining feature of the Constitutional protections 'rayiner is talking about, I strongly disagree. Obviously, they were amendments, but amendments that were ratified within months of the ratification of the Constitution itself. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the 1776 NJ Constitution sucked compared to the Federal Constitution. The idea that NJ independently provided protections comparable to that of the US Constitution as of 1791 is false.
Spooky23 14y ago
White collars crime carrys many stigma and long term consequences. In many states, you lose your voting rights. You lose your right to own a firearm, hold elected office, and serve in a jury, sometimes permanently. You may lose your ability to practice certain professions. In some states, the state has the ability to restore your civil rights after a Federal felony conviction via pardon or other procedure. Other states will only recognize a Federal pardon issued by the president. Still others will not restore certain rights in ANY circumstance; New York for example profits a pardoned convicted felon from ever owning a firearm.

by maratd 14y ago

tptacek 14y ago

Did you post that link to the 1776 NJ Constitution under the assumption that nobody would actually read it? Because it is more or less the opposite of what you claim: * It contains no bill of rights * It explicitly leaves intact the law of England * It concerns itself primarily with officeholding (available only to those with considerable fortunes for the time under this Constitution) and voting (available only to those exceeding a monetary threshold) * It establishes a freedom of religion only for Protestants (thinking this might have been some semantic subtlety of the 1770's that I didn't get, I looked into this further and found that not only does "Protestant" mean exactly what it says here, but that other states explicitly forbade Catholics and atheists from holding office at all in their 1776-1778 Constitutions). I gather you refer to the modern New Jersey Constitution when you praise the additional rights it grants. I don't think 'rayiner is talking about modern Constitutional law; something about how we resolved slavery in the 1800s suggests that maybe he understands that states no longer have unlimited power.

maratd 14y ago
> Did you post that link to the 1776 NJ Constitution under the assumption that nobody would actually read it? The link I posted doesn't contain the original constitution. Here is the link to it: http://www.state.nj.us/njfacts/njdoc10a.htm http://www.state.nj.us/njfacts/njdoc10a.htm > It contains no bill of rights Neither does the federal one. The bill of rights are actually amendments, which are not included in the main body of text. > It explicitly leaves intact the law of England You mean common law? What's your point? > It concerns itself primarily with officeholding So did the federal one? Did you even bother reading the US federal constitution? > It establishes a freedom of religion only for Protestants This is a blatant falsehood. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you can't understand the text, then keep your mouth shut, instead of spreading nonsense. Here is the only paragraph that makes a reference to Protestants: That there shall be no establishment of any one religious sect in this Province, in preference to another; and that no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right, merely on account of his religious principles; but that all persons, professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect, who shall demean themselves peaceably under the government, as hereby established, shall be capable of being elected into any office of profit or trust, or being a member of either branch of the Legislature, and shall fully and freely enjoy every privilege and immunity, enjoyed by others their fellow subjects. It's fairly plain and obvious, but clearly I have to explain it to you. Protestants were heavily discriminated against in the Old World. That's why they left in large numbers. This passage makes clear that they shall not be discriminated against and "freely enjoy every privilege and immunity, enjoyed by others" ...
- tptacek 14y ago
  That is what I assumed to have been the case too; cursory research suggests, no, it means what it says. All persons professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect shall be capable of being elected. The NC Constitution, ratified contemporaneously, is even more explicit. So, while I am of course willing to be wrong (I'm an Illinoisan and wasn't taught the NJ Constitution in grade school as I assume you were), I'm not with you yet. The rest: if you're suggesting the Bill of Rights isn't an important and defining feature of the Constitutional protections 'rayiner is talking about, I strongly disagree. Obviously, they were amendments, but amendments that were ratified within months of the ratification of the Constitution itself. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the 1776 NJ Constitution sucked compared to the Federal Constitution. The idea that NJ independently provided protections comparable to that of the US Constitution as of 1791 is false.

Spooky23 14y ago

White collars crime carrys many stigma and long term consequences. In many states, you lose your voting rights. You lose your right to own a firearm, hold elected office, and serve in a jury, sometimes permanently. You may lose your ability to practice certain professions. In some states, the state has the ability to restore your civil rights after a Federal felony conviction via pardon or other procedure. Other states will only recognize a Federal pardon issued by the president. Still others will not restore certain rights in ANY circumstance; New York for example profits a pardoned convicted felon from ever owning a firearm.