4 ms·

In no universe does a competent lawyer consider a plea bargain as a win, especially if that is not what his client wants. A win is a win is a win. Criminal de

by rprasad 14y ago

In no universe does a competent lawyer consider a plea bargain as a win, especially if that is not what his client wants. A win is a win is a win. Criminal defense lawyers are some of the most competitive, antagonistic people on the planet. If there is any possibility of winning your case, or even not losing, they will fight for it. If their client wants to fight the charges, the lawyer will fight them.

electromagnetic 14y ago
Given the overwhelming number of people in jail because of plea bargains, which up to 95% (depending on sources, but all tend to be >85%) of the US prison population made. It seems like in the US you can simply avoid jail by not making a plea bargain. Seriously, with those rates I bet prosecutors just bail the second the plea bargain isn't signed. They put more pressure on weak cases to try and get the plea bargain through, if they get guaranteed evidence they withdraw the plea because the prosecutors want the highest conviction at trial rate they can. The best way to deal with police is say nothing until you see a lawyer. Cops are allowed to trick people, so until you have a defence lawyer sat next to you, you say nothing because you don't want to give them anything usable against you. The whole point of judicial system is that if you get people fighting for both sides, you should get a socially appropriate punishment for what really happened. This doesn't happen with plea bargains any time. Innocent people make pleas from fear of getting nailed with something worse, guilty people make pleas before prosecution can get enough evidence to push for a full sentence or to get it dropped from felony or not to count as three-strikes.
- tptacek 14y ago
  I think you have to be a little bit careful with plea bargaining statistics. Yes, their incidence is overwhelming, but it's also easy to intuit that the majority of engagements between citizens and prosecutors come from circumstances where guilt isn't seriously in doubt. It will bother the hell out of most HN'ers to consider this, but most people charged with crimes are guilty of those crimes (that does not mean that anyone charged with a crime is guilty, or that bad-faith charges don't happen). If you were caught red handed with someone else's purse, or (even more likely) pulled out of your house drunk at 2AM after your battered wife was taken by ambulance to the hospital, chances are you're going to jump at whatever the prosecutor offers.
  - euroclydon 14y ago
    I hear you on the prevalence of spousal abuse. There was a report of it at an apartment complex we were living at. Police came knocking hard at the back door which we never used and which had bikes leaned against it from inside. I couldn't get the door open all the way, and my wife was barely visible back behind me. The cops became very aggressively agitated and unbelieving when I told them it wasn't us that they were looking for. They only left after we got the door open, and I agreed to let them talk to her in a different room from me.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      I brought domestic abuse up because a plurality of the people incarcerated at Cook County are there on domestic abuse charges; it is an extremely common charge.
- rprasad 14y ago
  Plea bargains are voluntary. People enter into plea bargains most frequently because they are actually guilty. They're not looking to avoid jail or prison; they're merely hoping to minimize the time they do have to spend locked up. It seems like in the US you can simply avoid jail by not making a plea bargain. Seriously, with those rates I bet prosecutors just bail the second the plea bargain isn't signed. Well, yes. That's actually a strategy that many criminal defense attorneys use. I was lucky enough to be working for a public defender's office when they used it against the local d.a.'s office, after the D.A. decided his reelection chances would be improved if he was even harsher on defendants than he already was. Long story short: for a brief period of time, the waiting period for courtrooms shot up to 2-3 years for criminal cases and 10 years for civil cases. Nothing can happen in court, so everything hits the fan, and the prosecution side of the criminal system breaks down. (The defense side is mostly unaffected.) The whole point of judicial system is that if you get people fighting for both sides, you should get a socially appropriate punishment for what really happened. This doesn't happen with plea bargains any time. No, that's not it at all. The point of having opposing parties is that a vigorous presentation of the facts by opposing parties tends to reveal (in theory) most of the facts necessary to discern what happened (or as close as you can get without actually being there). Innocent people make pleas from fear of getting nailed with something worse No, they don't. This is a fiction created by media. Innocent people fight like hell. They mortgage their homes, raid their retirement funds, max out their credit cards. The risk of insolvency is worth if if you're innocent, since pleading guilty can be an economic death sentence if they plead to felony-level crimes.
AnIrishDuck 14y ago
Additionally, contingent fees are banned for most criminal attorneys in the US [1]. This means that their pay is hourly, and thus when they go to court they get paid more. It's really in their best interest to fight the charges. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_fee#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_fee#United_States

by rprasad 14y ago

electromagnetic 14y ago

Given the overwhelming number of people in jail because of plea bargains, which up to 95% (depending on sources, but all tend to be >85%) of the US prison population made. It seems like in the US you can simply avoid jail by not making a plea bargain. Seriously, with those rates I bet prosecutors just bail the second the plea bargain isn't signed. They put more pressure on weak cases to try and get the plea bargain through, if they get guaranteed evidence they withdraw the plea because the prosecutors want the highest conviction at trial rate they can. The best way to deal with police is say nothing until you see a lawyer. Cops are allowed to trick people, so until you have a defence lawyer sat next to you, you say nothing because you don't want to give them anything usable against you. The whole point of judicial system is that if you get people fighting for both sides, you should get a socially appropriate punishment for what really happened. This doesn't happen with plea bargains any time. Innocent people make pleas from fear of getting nailed with something worse, guilty people make pleas before prosecution can get enough evidence to push for a full sentence or to get it dropped from felony or not to count as three-strikes.

tptacek 14y ago
I think you have to be a little bit careful with plea bargaining statistics. Yes, their incidence is overwhelming, but it's also easy to intuit that the majority of engagements between citizens and prosecutors come from circumstances where guilt isn't seriously in doubt. It will bother the hell out of most HN'ers to consider this, but most people charged with crimes are guilty of those crimes (that does not mean that anyone charged with a crime is guilty, or that bad-faith charges don't happen). If you were caught red handed with someone else's purse, or (even more likely) pulled out of your house drunk at 2AM after your battered wife was taken by ambulance to the hospital, chances are you're going to jump at whatever the prosecutor offers.
- euroclydon 14y ago
  I hear you on the prevalence of spousal abuse. There was a report of it at an apartment complex we were living at. Police came knocking hard at the back door which we never used and which had bikes leaned against it from inside. I couldn't get the door open all the way, and my wife was barely visible back behind me. The cops became very aggressively agitated and unbelieving when I told them it wasn't us that they were looking for. They only left after we got the door open, and I agreed to let them talk to her in a different room from me.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    I brought domestic abuse up because a plurality of the people incarcerated at Cook County are there on domestic abuse charges; it is an extremely common charge.
rprasad 14y ago
Plea bargains are voluntary. People enter into plea bargains most frequently because they are actually guilty. They're not looking to avoid jail or prison; they're merely hoping to minimize the time they do have to spend locked up. It seems like in the US you can simply avoid jail by not making a plea bargain. Seriously, with those rates I bet prosecutors just bail the second the plea bargain isn't signed. Well, yes. That's actually a strategy that many criminal defense attorneys use. I was lucky enough to be working for a public defender's office when they used it against the local d.a.'s office, after the D.A. decided his reelection chances would be improved if he was even harsher on defendants than he already was. Long story short: for a brief period of time, the waiting period for courtrooms shot up to 2-3 years for criminal cases and 10 years for civil cases. Nothing can happen in court, so everything hits the fan, and the prosecution side of the criminal system breaks down. (The defense side is mostly unaffected.) The whole point of judicial system is that if you get people fighting for both sides, you should get a socially appropriate punishment for what really happened. This doesn't happen with plea bargains any time. No, that's not it at all. The point of having opposing parties is that a vigorous presentation of the facts by opposing parties tends to reveal (in theory) most of the facts necessary to discern what happened (or as close as you can get without actually being there). Innocent people make pleas from fear of getting nailed with something worse No, they don't. This is a fiction created by media. Innocent people fight like hell. They mortgage their homes, raid their retirement funds, max out their credit cards. The risk of insolvency is worth if if you're innocent, since pleading guilty can be an economic death sentence if they plead to felony-level crimes.

AnIrishDuck 14y ago

Additionally, contingent fees are banned for most criminal attorneys in the US [1]. This means that their pay is hourly, and thus when they go to court they get paid more. It's really in their best interest to fight the charges. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_fee#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_fee#United_States