4 ms·

"Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable." Not to defend the climat

by sho 18y ago

"Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable." Not to defend the climate of fear generated by media scare stories, but it's more complex than that - the problem isn't that every once in a while someone screws up; the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's policy. Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. The fact that it happens at all, the idea that all "foreigners" are untrustworthy terrorists-in-disguise to be treated with suspicion and contempt, slowly sinks in. This is a very powerful antidote to the "land of the free" rhetoric, which starts to seem like a myth in itself - one media illusion demolishing another, if you will. And it's just this, I don't know, malicious arrogance to the whole thing. From the very beginning, to be treated in that way, and for such treatment to be institutionalised and officially accepted, even encouraged, as the price to pay for the privilege of being allowed to enter the country? After a while anyone with any pride at all is forced to consider whether America is such a shining utopia to be worth rolling the dice every time you dare to try and get into the place. And as countries like India and China grow in wealth and stature, the pride of their citizens rises too. But it's not just the risk of drawing the short straw on the "your name reminds us of something" list, every single visitor faces invasive biometric ID procedures to be kept for god knows how long, shared with god knows who, and used for god knows what purpose. I am an Australian citizen from birth (a country which is a longtime ally of the USA and actually the only country who has fought alongside her in every war for a century), non religious, educated and of sufficient means. If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a common criminal. Jokes about convict ancestry aside - do you have any idea what kind of message that sends? Whatever the intention is, I understand it as meaning that foreigners are not wanted in the USA, and I'm happy to oblige. You might think that sounds ridiculous and childish, taking such an impersonal message personally and all that, but think about it. Would you choose to visit a country that treats you like that, all other things being equal, which they pretty much are?

anamax 18y ago
> Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. Everyone knows someone who has a friend who knew the guy who tried to dry his poodle in the microwave. I'm not saying that Immigration and/or Homeland Security is great, but the rumor-mongering is unjustified. > the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's policy. And you know this because.... > I am an Australian citizen from birth Ah, Australia. I know a Stanford CS PhD student who was put through hell by the Australian equivalent of US Immigration/Homeland Security because she wanted to visit a guy who she met while he was in the US. They were concerned that she might want to stay, contaminate the gene pool, or somesuch. (She's pretty and white, so they weren't applying any sort of appearance standard.) Really. I actually know her. And, you should have paid her to emmigrate because she is seriously talented. And yes, she was seriously pissed. Nevertheless, I don't get hysterical about it. I'm looking forward to diving the Great Barrier Reef in a couple of years. > If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a common criminal. I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals and the like without actually checking. (For some reason, they don't mention that in their visa application.) Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try?
- tjmc 18y ago
  > I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals and the like without actually checking. Interesting viewpoint. Would you have a problem with having your photograph and fingerprints taken whenever you boarded a domestic flight? I'm sure they'd catch plenty of criminals that way too.
  - anamax 18y ago
    > Interesting viewpoint. Would you have a problem with having your photograph and fingerprints taken whenever you boarded a domestic flight? I'm sure they'd catch plenty of criminals that way too. It's interesting that you think that domestic travel and crossing a national border are the same. I know that Australia is concerned about young women visiting. Does it also care about criminals? Does it have any checks? And, if it does, I'm sure that you're fighting any that aren't applied to domestic travel, right?
    - sho 18y ago
      "It's interesting that you think that domestic travel and crossing a national border are the same." You're deliberately missing his point. His point is that if your objective is to catch criminals, and in pursuit of that goal you're willing to set up checkpoints to collect fingerprints, and you're the US authorities primarily concerned with US criminals - wouldn't it be far better to set up those checkpoints inside the country? It would be, and so obviously these fingerprint checks are not to catch criminals. And before you say it, no, I can't prove that, I am merely using deduction to make an argument for use in debate, which I believe is the point of this site. "I know that Australia is concerned about young women visiting. " Oh yes, from your personal anecdote about one (1) person. Australia is not perfect but you would be hard pressed to find much evidence, even anecdotal, that on balance it even comes close to the oppresive US border experience. And personally I am firmly in favour of as many young women visiting as possible : ) "Does it also care about criminals? Does it have any checks?" Yes, of course, and yes, it has checks. I am assuming you're a US Citizen - you'd need an ETAS visa; you apply in advance, pay some nominal fee, and the check is performed before you even get on the plane. Your visa is then automatically keyed to your personal information and passport number. Australian citizens need a similar visa from the US, which is called USVISIT. The fingerprints are then taken upon arrival regardless, making everyone wonder what the damn point of the visa was in the first place. And Australian passports are electronically encoded with biometric information, btw, and are very hard to fake. It would be much easier to simply fake the fingerprints, as Japan has discovered (one South Korean was recently arrested after entering Japan using fake fingerprints five times). "And, if it does, I'm sure that you're fighting any that aren't applied to domestic travel, right?" A spurious strawman argument which I won't respond to.

by sho 18y ago

anamax 18y ago

> Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. Everyone knows someone who has a friend who knew the guy who tried to dry his poodle in the microwave. I'm not saying that Immigration and/or Homeland Security is great, but the rumor-mongering is unjustified. > the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's policy. And you know this because.... > I am an Australian citizen from birth Ah, Australia. I know a Stanford CS PhD student who was put through hell by the Australian equivalent of US Immigration/Homeland Security because she wanted to visit a guy who she met while he was in the US. They were concerned that she might want to stay, contaminate the gene pool, or somesuch. (She's pretty and white, so they weren't applying any sort of appearance standard.) Really. I actually know her. And, you should have paid her to emmigrate because she is seriously talented. And yes, she was seriously pissed. Nevertheless, I don't get hysterical about it. I'm looking forward to diving the Great Barrier Reef in a couple of years. > If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a common criminal. I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals and the like without actually checking. (For some reason, they don't mention that in their visa application.) Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try?

tjmc 18y ago
> I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals and the like without actually checking. Interesting viewpoint. Would you have a problem with having your photograph and fingerprints taken whenever you boarded a domestic flight? I'm sure they'd catch plenty of criminals that way too.
- anamax 18y ago
  > Interesting viewpoint. Would you have a problem with having your photograph and fingerprints taken whenever you boarded a domestic flight? I'm sure they'd catch plenty of criminals that way too. It's interesting that you think that domestic travel and crossing a national border are the same. I know that Australia is concerned about young women visiting. Does it also care about criminals? Does it have any checks? And, if it does, I'm sure that you're fighting any that aren't applied to domestic travel, right?
  - sho 18y ago
    "It's interesting that you think that domestic travel and crossing a national border are the same." You're deliberately missing his point. His point is that if your objective is to catch criminals, and in pursuit of that goal you're willing to set up checkpoints to collect fingerprints, and you're the US authorities primarily concerned with US criminals - wouldn't it be far better to set up those checkpoints inside the country? It would be, and so obviously these fingerprint checks are not to catch criminals. And before you say it, no, I can't prove that, I am merely using deduction to make an argument for use in debate, which I believe is the point of this site. "I know that Australia is concerned about young women visiting. " Oh yes, from your personal anecdote about one (1) person. Australia is not perfect but you would be hard pressed to find much evidence, even anecdotal, that on balance it even comes close to the oppresive US border experience. And personally I am firmly in favour of as many young women visiting as possible : ) "Does it also care about criminals? Does it have any checks?" Yes, of course, and yes, it has checks. I am assuming you're a US Citizen - you'd need an ETAS visa; you apply in advance, pay some nominal fee, and the check is performed before you even get on the plane. Your visa is then automatically keyed to your personal information and passport number. Australian citizens need a similar visa from the US, which is called USVISIT. The fingerprints are then taken upon arrival regardless, making everyone wonder what the damn point of the visa was in the first place. And Australian passports are electronically encoded with biometric information, btw, and are very hard to fake. It would be much easier to simply fake the fingerprints, as Japan has discovered (one South Korean was recently arrested after entering Japan using fake fingerprints five times). "And, if it does, I'm sure that you're fighting any that aren't applied to domestic travel, right?" A spurious strawman argument which I won't respond to.