8 ms·

While there are things to be concerned about with this case, this is pretty silly. He sold gambling software while living in a state where gambling was illegal

While there are things to be concerned about with this case, this is pretty silly. He sold gambling software while living in a state where gambling was illegal. I'm all ears for arguments that gambling shouldn't be illegal or that prosecutors abuse their authority or many other arguments.

carbocation 14y ago
> He sold gambling software while living in a state where gambling was illegal. "He sold a Bugatti Veyron in a state where driving over 75mph was illegal."
- laurent123456 14y ago
  > "He sold a Bugatti Veyron in a state where driving over 75mph was illegal." With gambling software, the only thing you can do is illegal gambling. With a Bugatti Veyron, well as long as its speed is not locked at 75mph+, you can drive it all your life without doing anything illegal.
  - carbocation 14y ago
    > With a Bugatti Veyron, well as long as its speed is not locked at 75mph+, you can drive it all your life without doing anything illegal. That's a good part of my point. > With gambling software, the only thing you can do is illegal gambling. That's untrue.
  - pavel_lishin 14y ago
    > With gambling software, the only thing you can do is illegal gambling. You can also do legal gambling.
    - chc 14y ago
      Not in a context where gambling is illegal, you can't.
      - Goronmon 14y ago
        "Gambling is illegal where it is illegal" is a bit of a tautology don't you think? Unless you are saying gambling is never legal anywhere, in which case you are wrong.
        chc 14y ago
        > "Gambling is illegal where it is illegal" is a bit of a tautology don't you think? Absolutely. And that appears to be the context in which Laurent was using it. carbocation compared selling a sports car in a jurisdiction with a low speed limit to selling gambling software in a jurisdiction where gambling is illegal. Laurent replied that drivers of the sports car could still obey the law, while users of the gambling software would always be disobeying that jurisdiction's laws. I'm not sure I find the argument all that compelling, but it seems to me that people are arguing with a premise that is tautologically true.
        carbocation 14y ago
        > while users of the gambling software would always be disobeying that jurisdiction's laws (1) Only if they are gambling with the gambling software. They could be using it for non-illegal gaming purposes (such as free online poker where no money is involved), for research, for education, etc. Gambling is illegal in this hypothetical jurisdiction, not software that allows one to gamble. (2) Just as the Veyron can be produced in one jurisdiction and used elsewhere, gambling software can be produced in one jurisdiction and sold to people who then use it elsewhere. From the article, this is, indeed, what the software author claims to have done. In other words, software that can be used for behavior that is illegal in one jurisdiction can quite possibly be used for legal purposes in that same jurisdiction (1) or for the same purpose in a jurisdiction where such behavior is legal (2). Saying that you can't gamble in a place where gambling is illegal doesn't advance the discussion because nobody has yet disagreed with that explicitly or tacitly, as far as I can tell.
- DoggettCK 14y ago
  "He sold fireworks in a county where it's illegal to set off fireworks."
  - andrewcooke 14y ago
    but he sold them to people outside the country, where using fireworks is legal, right? it was those people that sold them back to where it is illegal... (if i understand correctly).
  - carbocation 14y ago
    Unless (a) the sale of fireworks is prohibited, (b) fireworks are wrong in and of themselves and therefore can have no moral or lawful use, or (c) the owner is not just selling fireworks but advocating their unlawful use, I see no issue with selling fireworks in a county where setting them off is prohibited.
  - PeterisP 14y ago
    It would and should be perfectly ok to manufacture fireworks and run a wholesale fireworks export operation in such counties.
dfxm12 14y ago
Is selling gambling software illegal in the state though? It might seem like a pedantic question, but laws can be very narrow in scope or vague in meaning. "Gambling" and "Selling gambling software" are legally two different things.
- danielweber 14y ago
  Oh, that is a very very good question. And it borders on extremely stupid to be making something that is illegal to use in your jurisdiction without first consulting a very good lawyer. Maybe his actions were, indeed, perfectly legal, and this is entirely a prosecutor abusing his power. But we have to be able to see a distinction between him selling something like a hammer, which isn't illegal to use in his jurisdiction, and gambling software, which probably is illegal to use in his jurisdiction. Covering your eyes and not figuring out if your actions are legal or not is a pretty crappy defense.
  - pyre 14y ago
    > extremely stupid to be making something that is > illegal to use in your jurisdiction He was making it in the jurisdiction, but selling out outside of the jurisdiction. He was making gambling software and selling it to businesses in locales where gambling is legal. If he was making slot machines and selling them to legal casinos (e.g. in Las Vegas), do you think that he would have been busted like this? Highly doubtful. This happened because his customers were crossing the line with the product, but -- to carry the analogy -- I doubt a slot machine maker would be held accountable if Caesar's Palace decided to open up an illegal gambling operation with the slot machines. The issue here is that the main offenders (foreign casinos) are outside of the state's jurisdiction, so they are going after the only person that they do have in their jurisdiction.
    - danielweber 14y ago
      I suspect people who manufacture slot machines have retained legal counsel that tell them what they need to do to follow the local law. If he were growing marijuana and selling it to people where marijuana is legal, no one would have trouble understanding this concept: hire a lawyer very early on. He only got a lawyer after the cops descended on him, and then only crappy ones he found on the Internet. I don't know the specifics of the law, and you don't either. (I shouldn't have to say this, again, but I'm not saying there wasn't prosecutorial abuse here. Neither does this guy, because he hoped he could ignore the question.)
fr0sty 14y ago
>He sold gambling software while living in a state where gambling was illegal. Jack Daniels Whiskey is made and sold by a distillery in a county where selling liquor is illegal.
- rprasad 14y ago
  Where selling liquor to consumers is illegal. It's perfectly legal in Moore County to sell liquor to retailers and wholesalers.
  - obstacle1 14y ago
    The programmer in question wasn't selling gambling services to consumers, he was selling gambling software to "retailers and wholesalers" who in turn served gambling consumers.

carbocation 14y ago

> He sold gambling software while living in a state where gambling was illegal. "He sold a Bugatti Veyron in a state where driving over 75mph was illegal."

laurent123456 14y ago
> "He sold a Bugatti Veyron in a state where driving over 75mph was illegal." With gambling software, the only thing you can do is illegal gambling. With a Bugatti Veyron, well as long as its speed is not locked at 75mph+, you can drive it all your life without doing anything illegal.
- carbocation 14y ago
  > With a Bugatti Veyron, well as long as its speed is not locked at 75mph+, you can drive it all your life without doing anything illegal. That's a good part of my point. > With gambling software, the only thing you can do is illegal gambling. That's untrue.
- pavel_lishin 14y ago
  > With gambling software, the only thing you can do is illegal gambling. You can also do legal gambling.
  - chc 14y ago
    Not in a context where gambling is illegal, you can't.
    - Goronmon 14y ago
      "Gambling is illegal where it is illegal" is a bit of a tautology don't you think? Unless you are saying gambling is never legal anywhere, in which case you are wrong.
      - chc 14y ago
        > "Gambling is illegal where it is illegal" is a bit of a tautology don't you think? Absolutely. And that appears to be the context in which Laurent was using it. carbocation compared selling a sports car in a jurisdiction with a low speed limit to selling gambling software in a jurisdiction where gambling is illegal. Laurent replied that drivers of the sports car could still obey the law, while users of the gambling software would always be disobeying that jurisdiction's laws. I'm not sure I find the argument all that compelling, but it seems to me that people are arguing with a premise that is tautologically true.
        carbocation 14y ago
        > while users of the gambling software would always be disobeying that jurisdiction's laws (1) Only if they are gambling with the gambling software. They could be using it for non-illegal gaming purposes (such as free online poker where no money is involved), for research, for education, etc. Gambling is illegal in this hypothetical jurisdiction, not software that allows one to gamble. (2) Just as the Veyron can be produced in one jurisdiction and used elsewhere, gambling software can be produced in one jurisdiction and sold to people who then use it elsewhere. From the article, this is, indeed, what the software author claims to have done. In other words, software that can be used for behavior that is illegal in one jurisdiction can quite possibly be used for legal purposes in that same jurisdiction (1) or for the same purpose in a jurisdiction where such behavior is legal (2). Saying that you can't gamble in a place where gambling is illegal doesn't advance the discussion because nobody has yet disagreed with that explicitly or tacitly, as far as I can tell.
DoggettCK 14y ago
"He sold fireworks in a county where it's illegal to set off fireworks."
- andrewcooke 14y ago
  but he sold them to people outside the country, where using fireworks is legal, right? it was those people that sold them back to where it is illegal... (if i understand correctly).
- carbocation 14y ago
  Unless (a) the sale of fireworks is prohibited, (b) fireworks are wrong in and of themselves and therefore can have no moral or lawful use, or (c) the owner is not just selling fireworks but advocating their unlawful use, I see no issue with selling fireworks in a county where setting them off is prohibited.
- PeterisP 14y ago
  It would and should be perfectly ok to manufacture fireworks and run a wholesale fireworks export operation in such counties.

dfxm12 14y ago

Is selling gambling software illegal in the state though? It might seem like a pedantic question, but laws can be very narrow in scope or vague in meaning. "Gambling" and "Selling gambling software" are legally two different things.

danielweber 14y ago
Oh, that is a very very good question. And it borders on extremely stupid to be making something that is illegal to use in your jurisdiction without first consulting a very good lawyer. Maybe his actions were, indeed, perfectly legal, and this is entirely a prosecutor abusing his power. But we have to be able to see a distinction between him selling something like a hammer, which isn't illegal to use in his jurisdiction, and gambling software, which probably is illegal to use in his jurisdiction. Covering your eyes and not figuring out if your actions are legal or not is a pretty crappy defense.
- pyre 14y ago
  > extremely stupid to be making something that is > illegal to use in your jurisdiction He was making it in the jurisdiction, but selling out outside of the jurisdiction. He was making gambling software and selling it to businesses in locales where gambling is legal. If he was making slot machines and selling them to legal casinos (e.g. in Las Vegas), do you think that he would have been busted like this? Highly doubtful. This happened because his customers were crossing the line with the product, but -- to carry the analogy -- I doubt a slot machine maker would be held accountable if Caesar's Palace decided to open up an illegal gambling operation with the slot machines. The issue here is that the main offenders (foreign casinos) are outside of the state's jurisdiction, so they are going after the only person that they do have in their jurisdiction.
  - danielweber 14y ago
    I suspect people who manufacture slot machines have retained legal counsel that tell them what they need to do to follow the local law. If he were growing marijuana and selling it to people where marijuana is legal, no one would have trouble understanding this concept: hire a lawyer very early on. He only got a lawyer after the cops descended on him, and then only crappy ones he found on the Internet. I don't know the specifics of the law, and you don't either. (I shouldn't have to say this, again, but I'm not saying there wasn't prosecutorial abuse here. Neither does this guy, because he hoped he could ignore the question.)

fr0sty 14y ago

>He sold gambling software while living in a state where gambling was illegal. Jack Daniels Whiskey is made and sold by a distillery in a county where selling liquor is illegal.

rprasad 14y ago
Where selling liquor to consumers is illegal. It's perfectly legal in Moore County to sell liquor to retailers and wholesalers.
- obstacle1 14y ago
  The programmer in question wasn't selling gambling services to consumers, he was selling gambling software to "retailers and wholesalers" who in turn served gambling consumers.