5 ms·

This is not a fair comparison. A hammer has multiple purposes. In general, it is not an instrument intended to cause harm. Even a gun can be used for a purpo

by suby 14y ago

This is not a fair comparison. A hammer has multiple purposes. In general, it is not an instrument intended to cause harm. Even a gun can be used for a purpose other than causing harm to others -- it can be argued that it serves as a deterrent to violence. What other purpose could gambling software be used for? It's irrelevant whether it was sold to overseas countries since, given the nature of the internet, New Yorkers would have access to those sites. I'm not saying that I think what is happening is right, I just think your comparison is unfair.

rorrr 14y ago
> What other purpose could gambling software be used for? Educational. Recreational (no money involved). Research (like to collect gambling data). To learn how to code and/or how games/strategies work.
- eriksank 14y ago
  Well, it may not even matter. As you can see they are very heavy-handed. That means they do not fear any reprisals for this. That is obviously where the problem is. Ultimately, respect is always based on the fear for reprisals.
jonknee 14y ago
> What other purpose could gambling software be used for? It's irrelevant whether it was sold to overseas countries since, given the nature of the internet, New Yorkers would have access to those sites. That's absolutely relevant. There are US companies that make slot machines. Most places in the country their products are illegal, just like the activities that this gambling software allows for. If an underground casino gets busted and is found to have slot machines, it's not the maker of the slot machines that is in trouble (unless there is evidence they were sold illegally).
jeremyjh 14y ago
>What other purpose could gambling software be used for? It could be lawfully used for gambling in OTHER countries. But actually this question is absurd. Writing gambling software is not illegal in New York. The burden of establishing a lawful motive is not on the defendant; instead the prosecution must prove that the activity he conducted was directly in support of illegal activity. That is a big difference.
Mvandenbergh 14y ago
Jack Daniels is famously distilled in a dry county where its sale would be illegal.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  And you can bet there are a hell of a lot of people in that county that will buy jack in an adjacent county and drive back home to drink it.
  - icambron 14y ago
    Which is legal in that county.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      The legality or lack of it really is irrelevant to Jack Daniels. If someone brings the jack back into the county, then sells it, that is not Jack Daniels problem.
nicholassmith 14y ago
You raise an interesting point about boundaries in the internet age. The comparison is unfair, but I do think it's perfectly relevant that it went overseas as it's not up to the software developer to also make sure that the sites are prohibiting American users, he's simply making a tool that's been using for the purpose it wasn't sold for.
- jorgeleo 14y ago
  I believe that the comparison is fair because "he's simply making a tool that's been using for the purpose it wasn't sold for". All the tools in the comparison are used in a manner that was not intended by the creator. The point is that it is unfair to charge the creator for the misuse of the tool. The problem is that in our society some "legal-oriented" people think of themselves as very smart because they believe to have attacked the root of the problem; this is under the rationale of "if we eliminate the source, we eliminate all its misuse" (as a side bar, the same rationale is used by the entertainment industry). The problem with this rational is that it destroy the good uses of the tool. And it has a double domino effect, one of chilling some creators (in this case some developers), and one of the thrill of the power on legally hurting someone (I got him! how smart and powerful I am). In reality it hurts the very thing that they claim to defend: the land of the free.
betterunix 14y ago
"What other purpose could gambling software be used for?" Not all gambling is illegal. New York State itself has a gambling operation, it is called the lottery and it serves as a way to extract money from poor people. There are casinos in New York State, on reservations. "It's irrelevant whether it was sold to overseas countries since, given the nature of the internet, New Yorkers would have access to those sites." That is a slippery slope. Hacker News does not censor its comments; that would make HN illegal in China. Do you really want to say that one jurisdiction's laws should apply elsewhere, just because of the Internet? The Internet is a communication system. If New Yorkers cannot gamble in a country where it is legal by communicating their bets over the Internet, New York is engaged in censorship; arresting someone who wrote software that was used by New Yorkers who ignored that censorship is something I would have expected from China or Iran.
- rprasad 14y ago
  Basic misunderstanding of international law on your part. A "service", website, or software program is considered to take place where the user is located, not where the website is located. This standard was set decades ago (in relation to services) and extends quite well to websites. Thus, the gambling in your example would be treated by international law as occuring in NY. Moreover, by choosing to do business with NY residents (unless such business is minor or incidental), the gambling websites would be subjecting themselves to the jurisdiction of NY for criminal law purposes).
- hef19898 14y ago
  Comletely agree. Following this logic, the internet and all web services could be regulated using the most most severe laws on this planet due to the global nature of the internet. What this shows is, at least for me, frightening trend to ignore the souverenity of foreign states when you consider them less powerfull than yourself. Germany is doing it with Switzerland for example too.

by suby 14y ago

rorrr 14y ago

> What other purpose could gambling software be used for? Educational. Recreational (no money involved). Research (like to collect gambling data). To learn how to code and/or how games/strategies work.

eriksank 14y ago
Well, it may not even matter. As you can see they are very heavy-handed. That means they do not fear any reprisals for this. That is obviously where the problem is. Ultimately, respect is always based on the fear for reprisals.

jonknee 14y ago

> What other purpose could gambling software be used for? It's irrelevant whether it was sold to overseas countries since, given the nature of the internet, New Yorkers would have access to those sites. That's absolutely relevant. There are US companies that make slot machines. Most places in the country their products are illegal, just like the activities that this gambling software allows for. If an underground casino gets busted and is found to have slot machines, it's not the maker of the slot machines that is in trouble (unless there is evidence they were sold illegally).

jeremyjh 14y ago

>What other purpose could gambling software be used for? It could be lawfully used for gambling in OTHER countries. But actually this question is absurd. Writing gambling software is not illegal in New York. The burden of establishing a lawful motive is not on the defendant; instead the prosecution must prove that the activity he conducted was directly in support of illegal activity. That is a big difference.

Mvandenbergh 14y ago

Jack Daniels is famously distilled in a dry county where its sale would be illegal.

jlgreco 14y ago
And you can bet there are a hell of a lot of people in that county that will buy jack in an adjacent county and drive back home to drink it.
- icambron 14y ago
  Which is legal in that county.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    The legality or lack of it really is irrelevant to Jack Daniels. If someone brings the jack back into the county, then sells it, that is not Jack Daniels problem.

nicholassmith 14y ago

You raise an interesting point about boundaries in the internet age. The comparison is unfair, but I do think it's perfectly relevant that it went overseas as it's not up to the software developer to also make sure that the sites are prohibiting American users, he's simply making a tool that's been using for the purpose it wasn't sold for.

jorgeleo 14y ago
I believe that the comparison is fair because "he's simply making a tool that's been using for the purpose it wasn't sold for". All the tools in the comparison are used in a manner that was not intended by the creator. The point is that it is unfair to charge the creator for the misuse of the tool. The problem is that in our society some "legal-oriented" people think of themselves as very smart because they believe to have attacked the root of the problem; this is under the rationale of "if we eliminate the source, we eliminate all its misuse" (as a side bar, the same rationale is used by the entertainment industry). The problem with this rational is that it destroy the good uses of the tool. And it has a double domino effect, one of chilling some creators (in this case some developers), and one of the thrill of the power on legally hurting someone (I got him! how smart and powerful I am). In reality it hurts the very thing that they claim to defend: the land of the free.

betterunix 14y ago

"What other purpose could gambling software be used for?" Not all gambling is illegal. New York State itself has a gambling operation, it is called the lottery and it serves as a way to extract money from poor people. There are casinos in New York State, on reservations. "It's irrelevant whether it was sold to overseas countries since, given the nature of the internet, New Yorkers would have access to those sites." That is a slippery slope. Hacker News does not censor its comments; that would make HN illegal in China. Do you really want to say that one jurisdiction's laws should apply elsewhere, just because of the Internet? The Internet is a communication system. If New Yorkers cannot gamble in a country where it is legal by communicating their bets over the Internet, New York is engaged in censorship; arresting someone who wrote software that was used by New Yorkers who ignored that censorship is something I would have expected from China or Iran.

rprasad 14y ago
Basic misunderstanding of international law on your part. A "service", website, or software program is considered to take place where the user is located, not where the website is located. This standard was set decades ago (in relation to services) and extends quite well to websites. Thus, the gambling in your example would be treated by international law as occuring in NY. Moreover, by choosing to do business with NY residents (unless such business is minor or incidental), the gambling websites would be subjecting themselves to the jurisdiction of NY for criminal law purposes).
hef19898 14y ago
Comletely agree. Following this logic, the internet and all web services could be regulated using the most most severe laws on this planet due to the global nature of the internet. What this shows is, at least for me, frightening trend to ignore the souverenity of foreign states when you consider them less powerfull than yourself. Germany is doing it with Switzerland for example too.