4 ms·

Hum... It is not that they (we) are leaving, it is more like they (we) are not even going. I'm a Spaniard, I have worked in five different countries in Europe

by Vargas 18y ago

Hum... It is not that they (we) are leaving, it is more like they (we) are not even going. I'm a Spaniard, I have worked in five different countries in Europe and Latin America. I'm currently settled in the U.K. I have worked as a consultant, as a developer in a "one-product" company and now I´m working as an in-house developer in a non-tech company. It simply does not make sense to relocate to USA for me. I have had a couple of offers to work in Boston or New York in the last few years and I turned them down. Weak dollar versus euro means that I won´t be able to pay my euro denominated mortgage while living in the U.S. I am free to work anywhere within the European Union, and I have always been very welcomed in Spanish speaking American countries while I would need some paperwork to work in the U.S. The political climate doesn't help either. I have never been in the U.S. and I realize that T.V. is not necessarily correlated to real life, but every other day you get news about some guy who was traveling to the U.S. for some perfectly legitimate reason, with all their legal documents in good shape and gets detained at the border for 30 hours, their families are not notified and they are not allowed to drink, eat or sleep. On the other hand, I personally know some people (about 15 persons) who travel frequently from Europe to the U.S.,for both professional and personal reasons. They have never had problems in the border. There is clearly a dissonance between my "real-life" experience and my "media-induced" experience. Nonetheless, if I had to travel there, I would be a bit scared... my mother would definitely be very scared. I really hope that things change. My wife is eager to spend a few years living in the U.S. We won't be going for now... may be during Obama's second term (if it happens) it would be economically feasible (strong dollar) and professionally interesting for me. As anyone with a passion for our craft, I have read countless histories about Silicon Valley, and I think the odds would be better for my own (future) start-up in there rather than in Europe, where bureaucracy and lack of funding make things more difficult.

anamax 18y ago
> every other day you get news about some guy who > On the other hand, I personally know some people (about 15 persons) Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable.
- sho 18y ago
  "Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable." Not to defend the climate of fear generated by media scare stories, but it's more complex than that - the problem isn't that every once in a while someone screws up; the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's policy. Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. The fact that it happens at all, the idea that all "foreigners" are untrustworthy terrorists-in-disguise to be treated with suspicion and contempt, slowly sinks in. This is a very powerful antidote to the "land of the free" rhetoric, which starts to seem like a myth in itself - one media illusion demolishing another, if you will. And it's just this, I don't know, malicious arrogance to the whole thing. From the very beginning, to be treated in that way, and for such treatment to be institutionalised and officially accepted, even encouraged, as the price to pay for the privilege of being allowed to enter the country? After a while anyone with any pride at all is forced to consider whether America is such a shining utopia to be worth rolling the dice every time you dare to try and get into the place. And as countries like India and China grow in wealth and stature, the pride of their citizens rises too. But it's not just the risk of drawing the short straw on the "your name reminds us of something" list, every single visitor faces invasive biometric ID procedures to be kept for god knows how long, shared with god knows who, and used for god knows what purpose. I am an Australian citizen from birth (a country which is a longtime ally of the USA and actually the only country who has fought alongside her in every war for a century), non religious, educated and of sufficient means. If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a common criminal. Jokes about convict ancestry aside - do you have any idea what kind of message that sends? Whatever the intention is, I understand it as meaning that foreigners are not wanted in the USA, and I'm happy to oblige. You might think that sounds ridiculous and childish, taking such an impersonal message personally and all that, but think about it. Would you choose to visit a country that treats you like that, all other things being equal, which they pretty much are?
  - anamax 18y ago
    > Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. Everyone knows someone who has a friend who knew the guy who tried to dry his poodle in the microwave. I'm not saying that Immigration and/or Homeland Security is great, but the rumor-mongering is unjustified. > the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's policy. And you know this because.... > I am an Australian citizen from birth Ah, Australia. I know a Stanford CS PhD student who was put through hell by the Australian equivalent of US Immigration/Homeland Security because she wanted to visit a guy who she met while he was in the US. They were concerned that she might want to stay, contaminate the gene pool, or somesuch. (She's pretty and white, so they weren't applying any sort of appearance standard.) Really. I actually know her. And, you should have paid her to emmigrate because she is seriously talented. And yes, she was seriously pissed. Nevertheless, I don't get hysterical about it. I'm looking forward to diving the Great Barrier Reef in a couple of years. > If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a common criminal. I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals and the like without actually checking. (For some reason, they don't mention that in their visa application.) Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try?
anamax 18y ago
> Weak dollar versus euro means that I won´t be able to pay my euro denominated mortgage while living in the U.S. Are you able to pay your "euro denominated mortgage while living" elsewhere (and paying for a second household) in the EU?
- Vargas 18y ago
  Yes, in London.

by Vargas 18y ago

anamax 18y ago

> every other day you get news about some guy who > On the other hand, I personally know some people (about 15 persons) Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable.

sho 18y ago
"Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable." Not to defend the climate of fear generated by media scare stories, but it's more complex than that - the problem isn't that every once in a while someone screws up; the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's policy. Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. The fact that it happens at all, the idea that all "foreigners" are untrustworthy terrorists-in-disguise to be treated with suspicion and contempt, slowly sinks in. This is a very powerful antidote to the "land of the free" rhetoric, which starts to seem like a myth in itself - one media illusion demolishing another, if you will. And it's just this, I don't know, malicious arrogance to the whole thing. From the very beginning, to be treated in that way, and for such treatment to be institutionalised and officially accepted, even encouraged, as the price to pay for the privilege of being allowed to enter the country? After a while anyone with any pride at all is forced to consider whether America is such a shining utopia to be worth rolling the dice every time you dare to try and get into the place. And as countries like India and China grow in wealth and stature, the pride of their citizens rises too. But it's not just the risk of drawing the short straw on the "your name reminds us of something" list, every single visitor faces invasive biometric ID procedures to be kept for god knows how long, shared with god knows who, and used for god knows what purpose. I am an Australian citizen from birth (a country which is a longtime ally of the USA and actually the only country who has fought alongside her in every war for a century), non religious, educated and of sufficient means. If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a common criminal. Jokes about convict ancestry aside - do you have any idea what kind of message that sends? Whatever the intention is, I understand it as meaning that foreigners are not wanted in the USA, and I'm happy to oblige. You might think that sounds ridiculous and childish, taking such an impersonal message personally and all that, but think about it. Would you choose to visit a country that treats you like that, all other things being equal, which they pretty much are?
- anamax 18y ago
  > Everyone knows someone with a story about some horrible entry into the US. Everyone knows someone who has a friend who knew the guy who tried to dry his poodle in the microwave. I'm not saying that Immigration and/or Homeland Security is great, but the rumor-mongering is unjustified. > the problem is that it can happen at all and they're not screw-ups, it's policy. And you know this because.... > I am an Australian citizen from birth Ah, Australia. I know a Stanford CS PhD student who was put through hell by the Australian equivalent of US Immigration/Homeland Security because she wanted to visit a guy who she met while he was in the US. They were concerned that she might want to stay, contaminate the gene pool, or somesuch. (She's pretty and white, so they weren't applying any sort of appearance standard.) Really. I actually know her. And, you should have paid her to emmigrate because she is seriously talented. And yes, she was seriously pissed. Nevertheless, I don't get hysterical about it. I'm looking forward to diving the Great Barrier Reef in a couple of years. > If I want to enter the US I face being photographed and my fingerprints taken like a common criminal. I don't know how things are in Australia, but we can't identify criminals and the like without actually checking. (For some reason, they don't mention that in their visa application.) Are you suggesting that we shouldn't try?

anamax 18y ago

> Weak dollar versus euro means that I won´t be able to pay my euro denominated mortgage while living in the U.S. Are you able to pay your "euro denominated mortgage while living" elsewhere (and paying for a second household) in the EU?

Vargas 18y ago
Yes, in London.