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This is hard for me to say as I'm pretty much the real world version of Dale Gribble, but being more worried about Facebook than the Government is a reasonable

by bcoates 14y ago

This is hard for me to say as I'm pretty much the real world version of Dale Gribble, but being more worried about Facebook than the Government is a reasonable position. The upside of government surveillance is that the government gains power by keeping your secrets secret, and when it comes down to it, the vast majority of people are simply uninteresting to the spooks and both parties know it. The odds of being extra-judicially executed for being a YouTube troll are nonzero, but statistically close enough that it's not worth worrying about unless you meet a very narrow profile. Facebook, on the other hand, seems to have as a primary business model finding out everything about everyone, and then telling everyone else. It's this latter part that people worry about. They don't want their life broadcast to every potential employer, client, lender, local xenophobe, landlord, insurance company, lover, violent ex-lover, nosy neighbor, obsessive stalker etc. that they deal with in their life. The odds there are a lot more grim--You're about 1000 times more likely to be killed by your ex or soon to be ex than the President.

nuclear_eclipse 14y ago
Only a 1000x difference?
- bcoates 14y ago
  It's a back of the envelope estimate: the US has about a 10,000/year murder rate, about half of those are in the family. The targeted killings program doesn't exactly advertise but it's known to be well more than one so I'm guessing it's in the tens per year of people who could be described as westerners. YMMV.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Where on earth do you get the idea that the drone strikes are killing a non-zero number of westerners?!
    - Hello71 14y ago
      Where on earth do you get the idea that he was talking about drone strikes?!
      - rayiner 14y ago
        What other "targeted killing" program is there?
        olefoo 14y ago
        Well, the US government has said that it doesn't have to tell you that because it's a national security matter. However the existence of at least one government associated plan to kill US Citizens on US territory was surfaced in the media last week http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/12/31/fbi-report-mentions-plot-to-kill-occupy-protesters/ http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/12/31/fbi-report-mentions-p... And while I cannot provide evidence that there have been others; it is a fact that the US government has been training death squads at Fort Benning and elsewhere for more than 40 years (vide: Guatemala, Nicaragua, Paraguay and many other countries whose paramilitary/police were trained by the US and went on targeted campaigns of killing civilians); although most of the openly acknowledged trainees were not US citizens, but Police and Military from client governments, mostly in South and Central America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_fo... And given that Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder is on the record as saying """ “Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. """ It's not impossible that everyone who reads this thread is being assessed for their suitability to be judged a "threat to national security" and thus worth the cost of elimination.
        rayiner 14y ago
        You speak of a "government associated" plan, but the very article you link to says: "It remains unclear as to who or what this report is referring to, yet the FBI decided to disclose it under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to the Partnership For Civil Justice Fund – the document is on page 61." You think the FBI is giving out information about government projects to kill U.S. citizens on U.S. soil via FOIA documents? As for the quote "due process and judicial process are not one and the same," it's a completely accurate and uncontroversial statement of the law. The phrase "due process" means exactly what it sounds like. People are entitled to the "process" that is "due" given the context. The process due is not necessarily judicial process, and in many contexts might be much less than that.
ams6110 14y ago
the vast majority of people are simply uninteresting to the spooks Today.
yafujifide 14y ago
If you don't like Facebook surveillance then you can opt out by not using it. But you can't opt out of government surveillance. You didn't address this important fact.

by bcoates 14y ago

nuclear_eclipse 14y ago

Only a 1000x difference?

bcoates 14y ago
It's a back of the envelope estimate: the US has about a 10,000/year murder rate, about half of those are in the family. The targeted killings program doesn't exactly advertise but it's known to be well more than one so I'm guessing it's in the tens per year of people who could be described as westerners. YMMV.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Where on earth do you get the idea that the drone strikes are killing a non-zero number of westerners?!
  - Hello71 14y ago
    Where on earth do you get the idea that he was talking about drone strikes?!
    - rayiner 14y ago
      What other "targeted killing" program is there?
      - olefoo 14y ago
        Well, the US government has said that it doesn't have to tell you that because it's a national security matter. However the existence of at least one government associated plan to kill US Citizens on US territory was surfaced in the media last week http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/12/31/fbi-report-mentions-plot-to-kill-occupy-protesters/ http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/12/31/fbi-report-mentions-p... And while I cannot provide evidence that there have been others; it is a fact that the US government has been training death squads at Fort Benning and elsewhere for more than 40 years (vide: Guatemala, Nicaragua, Paraguay and many other countries whose paramilitary/police were trained by the US and went on targeted campaigns of killing civilians); although most of the openly acknowledged trainees were not US citizens, but Police and Military from client governments, mostly in South and Central America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_fo... And given that Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder is on the record as saying """ “Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. """ It's not impossible that everyone who reads this thread is being assessed for their suitability to be judged a "threat to national security" and thus worth the cost of elimination.
        rayiner 14y ago
        You speak of a "government associated" plan, but the very article you link to says: "It remains unclear as to who or what this report is referring to, yet the FBI decided to disclose it under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to the Partnership For Civil Justice Fund – the document is on page 61." You think the FBI is giving out information about government projects to kill U.S. citizens on U.S. soil via FOIA documents? As for the quote "due process and judicial process are not one and the same," it's a completely accurate and uncontroversial statement of the law. The phrase "due process" means exactly what it sounds like. People are entitled to the "process" that is "due" given the context. The process due is not necessarily judicial process, and in many contexts might be much less than that.

ams6110 14y ago

the vast majority of people are simply uninteresting to the spooks Today.

yafujifide 14y ago

If you don't like Facebook surveillance then you can opt out by not using it. But you can't opt out of government surveillance. You didn't address this important fact.