That's a typical case of theory and practice.
Yes, in theory the US is a country that supports metric. In practice, go and ask anybody in the country outside of the military for the following:
- An M10 bolt
- a 16mm wrench to drive it with
- a 3 meter long 50 mm od pvc drainpipe
- a tape-measure that measures only in metric
- a highway sign that is posted in km
And so on. See how many people can point you to any of these.
Then try this:
- a 3/8th " bolt
- a 9/16th " wrench to drive it with
- a 10' long 2" od pvc drainpipe
- a tape measure that only measures in Imperial
- a highway sign posted in Miles.
The petition is dead on in the way the US approaches the metric system, in practice it is imperial all the way. As long as the practice doesn't change what the technical situation is won't matter one bit.
The only way to get out of this is to change the law, and to deprecate Imperial in favor of metric.
The comment you replied to never claimed that the U.S. uses metric units, only that it has been legal and even encouraged since 1866. So to re-iterate, there no change needed to the law, it already allows metric just fine (as you yourself note when you mention that the government-run military understands metric).
Simply deprecating customary units won't be enough to make the switch, you would actually have to make it illegal, and Hell will freeze over before you'll see that pass in the U.S. ("Doesn't Congress have actual problems to fix???")
relevant onion article: http://www.theonion.com/articles/metric-system-thriving-in-nations-inner-cities,458/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/metric-system-thriving-in-n...
Have you ever been inside of a hardware store?
Every hardware store I've ever been to has a section for metric. Our lab, for instance, keeps a supply of bolts, and as far as I remember /only/ has metric.
Also every socket set I've ever used has a metric and standard set.
Why would you care about road signs? And why would you care about a tape measure that is /only/ in metric? The second one seems kindof silly.
The only thing I know of that isn't available commonly in metric sizes are machining tools like mills. As far as I know, machining is always done in "mils", or thousands of an inch.
Or if you happen to ask anyone who works on a vehicle that isn't from one of the American manufacturers. My Toyota used all metric, AFAIK, and all of my motorcycles have used metric. I can't say I've ever even used the standard set of tools that came with my toolset (which had both metric and standard).
Toyota is weird, in that all of the nuts & bolts on their cars are metric, but their tolerances in the factory service manual are listed in thousandths of an inch. I did a double-take when I saw the deck flatness tolerance of ".002" for my car, for example.
My Ford car is all metric as well.
> Have you ever been inside of a hardware store?
I believe so. Maybe a couple of times. Or maybe I practically lived in one for a couple of years.
Would this do for you?
http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/trips/jansvisit/?g2_page=6 http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/trips/jansvisit/?g2_page=6
Yes, there is a section for metric in the hardware store.
It's the bit at the back with about 1/2 the sizes missing and only the stuff that you don't need in stock. I've had a machine shop in Canada (which officially had metric) and it was quite hard to get metric stuff. So hard that in the end we standardized on Imperial. In the US it was way worse.
Socket sets have standard and metric. Metric mostly for working on Japanese or European cars. But the most tools 'at hand' will be imperial. Maybe your experience is different but I've had plenty of bolts on my Japanese car wrecked by a shop putting imperial tools on them and plowing ahead. Works especially good if you use airtools, instant roundness.
You care about road signs because they're a sign that you really are standardizing. If your road signs are still in Miles then you're not a 'metric' country.
And you care about a tape measure only in metric because that's all you use in a metric country.
Machine tools - of which I owned a small fortune worth of - have things called morse tapers for the various tool bits. Morse tapers are adapters that allow you to quickly switch bits, most of the tooling that fits them is in Imperial. Collets, the elements that hold tooling for a mill or a lathe are all in imperial sizes. Unless you order from a very large catalogue it is very difficult to get mills in metric, but that is much more frustrating is that it can even be hard to source drills in metric.
Machining is done to thousands of an inch in the US. The rest of the world uses 1/100th of a mm for both turning and milling, and a series of fittings for more precise work.
The good news is that the bigger bearing companies all do carry metric if you need it. And if they don't have it in stock it 's usually only a day away.
Unless you've actually tried to design a somewhat complex chunk of machinery you might be given the impression that 'metric is easy'. In practice stuff like shafts, gears, supports and so on are all easier to source in Imperial than in Metric both in the US and in Canada too.
You want to order in Imperial, just one moment while I get your order form the warehouse out back. You want to order in Metric. That's perfectly fine, we're a metric country after all. Would it suit you to pick your order up in early march, possibly the middle of april before it is complete?
This is anecdotal, but I recall that Alabama put up highway markers in kilometers during the 1990's [1]. It confused people, and they cancelled the program. You can still find signs that haven't fallen down or been stolen in some places.
[1] http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/signs/AL.html http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/signs/AL.html
This is a bunch of fictions. Americans with wrenches tend to have both SAE and metric sizes. The thread pitches of metric bolts differs from SAE standards, and drain pipes are sized on inside diameter not outside because ID is relevant to capacity.
Tape measures have standard units because they're standard where tape measures are used - in construction.
Where it makes sense, metric is common, e.g. soft drink bottles.
> This is a bunch of fictions.
Not really, those are all pretty practical examples. I've dealt with each and every one of those.
> Americans with wrenches tend to have both SAE and metric sizes.
The metric ones will be brand new if they have them, the imperial ones will be well worn.
> The thread pitches of metric bolts differs from SAE standards
Indeed they do. In the EU Ford vehicles are all metric unless they were private imports from the USA. I'm not sure what the situation is today but when I still lived in Canada the ford we had had all imperial sizes bolts as far as they were exposed.
> Tape measures have standard units because they're standard where tape measures are used - in construction.
Yes, and as long as you don't change that that's they way it will stay. The English drive on the left because they do. But that doesn't mean they can say that they've adopted driving on the right side of the road because they could. They haven't. So construction is almost entirely in Imperial.
In a metric country, metric is used everywhere, because it makes sense.
The U.S. auto-industry typically uses metric fasteners. In my experience, that's pretty much been the case since the early 1980's - though that experience is mainly with GM products.
Some of my older metric tools predate that. I owned a '64 Baja bug - thereby learning the art of static timing adjustment.
Changing tape measures isn't going to change US construction practice. Lumber has to change. Cold formed steel manufacturing standards have to change. Steel mills have to change.
All the engineering tables have to change. And insurance underwriters have to be willing to eat claims based on any confusion which this creates - it's kind of like the Hubble telescope without NASA redundancy, except that people will probably die.
Some of your examples are good, but many aren't based in reality for the US consumer. A lot of consumer goods are manufactured overseas, then imported to the US. The manufacturers of these goods rarely create custom versions that rely on inch-based hardware. The ISO nomenclature isn't very common, but 16mm wrenches are very common. Pretty much any US resident who wants to work on their car or assemble products without using the supplied stamped wrenches has to have both imperial and and metric tools. I've got a whole tool chest full of that mix in wrenches, sockets, and hex drivers.
When it comes to highways and tape measures, you're right though. A tape measure is most commonly used in carpentry, which is almost entirely imperial. Our cars all have speedometers that display MPH in large type, so I don't see that changing without some mandate.
Does anyone else on HN work on their own car? My ancient unbreakable domestic mfgr '97 GM car is all metric. Right off the top of my head the oil drain plug is a M12-1.75 bolt. I just replaced the battery two weeks ago, all metric (I think they were M10 bolts? I was in a huge hurry). Seemingly everything on my GM car is metric, and it was built 15 years ago, I can only imagine how metric everything in auto-land is now.
GM and Ford use metric for the last 20 years - but on a lot of their 'easily accessible' bolts, the heads are sized just enough to work with standard hobby imperial sockets. If I remember - That M10 will fit a 3/8" socket too, and M13 is used all over the place and will work with 1/2" socket.
On my wife's Suzuki their M10 will not work with a 3/8" socket, and if you get into anywhere serious on a GM or Ford - those bolt heads will be exact metric with no room for imperial.
That would make good sense. What about things like wheel nuts, hitch attachements and so on?
The ford I had had a surprising amount of imperial on it about a decade ago. Presumably under the hood and inside the engine it was all metric though.
"What about things like wheel nuts"
I can verify its 30 mm with my wheels/hubs on my car. Supposedly that's "unusual" and most cars that size are 28mm or 32mm so people end up mystified why their 28 doesn't fit something that looks visually at a distance like a 28, or they use a way too big 32 and neatly round off the corners of the nut when it slips. I imagine using an imperial impact wrench is an effective way to round off the wheel nuts on a Saturn.
I would imagine if you bought aftermarket wheels/studs alloy or steel you could have most any size within a narrow range that's compatible with the hub.
"hitch"
LOL at the idea of my tiny little 2-door subcompact towing anything like those giant RV trailers. I do know standard american trailer hitch on pickup trucks has been 2 inch square for a century or something like that. Kind of like how we're not going to change every piece of railroad track and rolling stock in the USA to a metric equivalent rail gauge any time soon, until the end of time we'll be stuck with 50.8mm trailer hitches. I bet you could slam a european 50mm in the hole within manufacturing/rust tolerances.
I have all of those things except the drain pipe and a highway sign.
Every socket set i have contains both SAE and metric.
Half of my power tools are in metric (festool).
All plywood that you buy from the hardware store in the US is really metric sized nowadays.
Every screw/fastener on every tool I own is metric or metric sized.
I haven't used my SAE hex keys in eons.
When you say 'metric sized' do you mean 1250x2500 or do you mean 1219.20 x 2438.4?
Home Depot does not agree with you.
From http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbu0m/h_d2/Navigation?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051 http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbu0m/h_d2/Navigation?c...
this is my absolute favorite: "5.2 mm x 2 ft. x 4 ft. Sanded project panel", all the rest is in Imperial.
I mean that nominal 1/2" plywood is not 1/2" anymore, it's undersized to 12mm.
The width/length is not in metric, the actual thickness is, though they come up with an imperial equivalent that is within a few thousandths.
In other words, they tell folks 1/4 plywood is 15/64, 1/2" plywood is 15/32, etc. In reality, they are undersized to the nearest mm.
Like jaquesm says, I just bought plywood at home depot and it came in 6.45mm thickness, 24"x48". I don't know how you get 6.45mm either in metric or imperial, but it's clearly not "sized in metric".
Thickness wise, they are sized in metric.
If you got 6.45mm, someone messed up :)
No non-hardwood plywood, even 1/4" plywood, is oversized, and 6.45mm would be oversized at .2539 inches. If it was actual 1/4" (hardwood plywood), it would be 6.4mm per APA (american plywood association) standards.
Outside of hardwood plywood, thicknesses are really done in metric.
1/4" nominal plywood nowadays is sized at "15/64" imperial, or in reality, 6mm.
1/2" nominal plywood is 12mm, or "15/32".
(the actual sizes are metric, but are close enough in tolerance to imperial /32 or /64 sizes that they work)
The only plywood you will find that is "actual" size in imperial is domestically produced hardwood plywood.
This is not a large percentage of produced plywood :)
I worked in oilfield and petrochemical construction and manufacturing for almost ten years, and I can say that we almost never used metric. I think in the ten years, I worked on two projects that required metric bolts and fittings, both of which were for Japanese companies. Retraining the workers to use metric for these projects was a battle in itself.
We built structures and equipment that went around the world... all using imperial.
I like in the US and am from EU.
As a result, while I try to ask for things in imperial units, I happen to ask for tools and related things in metrics from time to time. My experience is as follow:
- most people actually just get me exactly what I want
- nobody ever complained "why do you ask metrics, you're in the US we use imperial!!", ever
- nobody ever told me "I don't know what that makes in inches, do you know it in inches?" (or similar), ever
So while I'm just one person and all, I still have a feeling this could eventually work.
Oddly enough, highway signs in km can be found for about 20km north of the border town of Nogales, Arizona.
This is true. However, this is not insurmountable:
http://xkcd.com/526/ http://xkcd.com/526/
The key is, I think, start with the measurements you use in your daily life and start estimating in those terms. Use it in the office. It might be accelerated if there's a metrics app for the Google Glasses, automatically converting signs into metric. You start saying, "dude, that bouncer must be two meters tall!" and getting everyone around you to convert.
I live in a metric country so I agree with everything you say, though a metric only tape measure is possibly less important. Actually I have two tape measures handy, one is metric only and the other has metric and imperial units. I think you'd expect to see both units for quite some time after conversion. Interestingly the one that is metric only is a style that tradesmen often have. I gather if you are measuring things all the time, you'd only want to deal with one set of units. So perhaps the option of having a metric only tape measure is still useful.