26 ms·

How I Fell in Love with a Schizophrenic

433 points by techdog 14y ago

rikacomet 14y ago
My heart felt feelings for you my friend, your that kind of man, which I want to be, someone who has truly lived the saying: Beauty stays till 40-50, Intellect till 60-70, after that, only those who love each other for the heck of it, truly stay happily ever after.
mmariani 14y ago
No doubt there's a lot of hard work ahead, for both of us. But you know what? I never saw anything in this life that was worth a damn that didn't involve hard work. The idea is not to shun the hard work but to embrace it. Embrace it with both arms, squeeze it hard, and accept it, not with fateful resignation but with the sure knowledge that if you do embrace it, good things will come, eventually. The alternative, giving up, is unthinkable. That, exactly that, is what life is all about. If you don't get it don't bother living life until you get it. Simply put, because your existence won't have any meaning to drive yourself through the hard work ahead through the path that will change a life beside your own. To the OP, people like you still give me hope about the mankind. All my best feelings and thoughts will be with you and your beloved one. I'm sure you'll get through that, and live happy. It's just a matter of time.
- scribu 14y ago
  "If you don't get it don't bother living life until you get it." So, WoW?
  - wildranter 14y ago
    Perhaps you should wad a book instead. http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-Life/dp/1118024516 http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-Life/dp/11180245...
DanBC 14y ago
Thank you so much for having the courage to openly discuss your relationship with a person with a mental illness. Your calm words will, I hope, do a lot to explain what it's like. > I think most guys, on a first date, upon hearing a young lady talk seriously about being visited by aliens, would probably find some reason to cut the evening short. I merely listened. Sally "knew" the alien visitation wasn't real. But it felt real enough to her when it happened. So I asked her to tell me about it in detail. And I listened, without passing judgment. She ultimately laughed the whole thing off, but I knew it was an important part of her reality. Talking to people who have hallucinations or who hear voices is sometimes fascinating. Sometimes they start the conversation and you don't know that anything is different, and because they are not lying the story sounds utterly convincing. And then, maybe, some odd details start creeping in. Or maybe the story is about alien visitation and it's obviously not true from the start, even though the person telling the tale it utterly believable. > She didn't know that when a yellow car pulled in front of her on the road, it didn't mean there was danger ahead. At their gentlest these paranoias and delusions seem similar to everyday superstitions. I think that's what makes it harder for people to understand just how strong the feelings are. > As a disabled person (who can't work a normal job, because of the severity of her residual symptoms), Sally gets a monthly check for $661. That's it. That's all. No more. Here you go: $661 a month, now go take care of yourself. This is the thing I really want to talk about. I live in the UK. We've had a variety of different disability benefits over the years. Unfortunately those benefits have not kept current with modern treatment; nor with modern political directions; and now we're in the unpleasant situation of needing to cut our massive welfare bill, but not having any suitable alternatives for people yet, and not having adequate support for disabled people. For example, in the 1980's people with bad back were told to not move, to lie flat on their back on a firm mattress. Many people were signed off work for years because of bad back. We know now that's terrible advice. If there's no underlying illness causing the backache (and there can be serious illness causing backache) you should carefully take pain killers, and keep moving. Some exercise will help recovery, and some other exercise will prevent relapse. So, now, with bad back you might need a bit of time off work to let the pain killers start working, and then a bit of time to get the exercise going, but then you can return to work full time. Applying that to MH problems we see that people with mood disorders like depression were cocooned away from stress. "Don't go back to work, because you'll trigger another episode of illness". But many people want to work. They do not want to live a life on benefits. Ideally you have a programme that finds people the work they want to do, and then gives them time-unlimited support for that work. That support would be things like helping someone sort out transport; explaining to a boss what reasonable adjustments (a legal concept) means; discussion about difficulties staying in work and how to resolve those; discussion about any prejudice that is happening etc. Such programmes exist, but are patchy and usually very busy with long wait-lists. And because our benefits system hasn't caught up people can get caught in nasty situations. There's a variety of benefit schemes to help people get back into work, but if you're working (even with a severe, enduring MH problem) they might take the disability benefits away from you, which can then shut down other parts of your support network; and which can be very stressful for some people. Coping with complex benefit and tax systems is not helpful when you've just started your first job in 12 years. So, while we have made a lot of progress, there is still a lot of progress to be made. I wish you and Sally all the best for the future!
shail 14y ago
Now this is the god of love stories. Thanks for sharing your life with us.
cldwalker 14y ago
To the OP, thanks for encouraging others to think about mental illness and improving the situation in the US. Side note to others - in my experience with people with schizophrenia, they usually prefer to be referred to as just that, "a person with schizophrenia", not "a schizophrenic". People are more than just their illness.
- alanctgardner2 14y ago
  This is in line with the APA recommendation for referring to anyone with a disability - psychological or physical. They aren`t characterized by their disability; they`re a person foremost.
jre 14y ago
This is an inspiring story to start the new year with. Thank you.
agentultra 14y ago
Wonderful story, thanks for sharing. It's an outrage that a disabled person is expected to live independently on $661 a month. Even in Canada where we have social assistance and state healthcare the disability pensions here are abysmal. I spent my adolescent years growing up with a single disabled mother and that's pretty much all she gets to this day; less than minimum wage. If it wasn't for me working long hours after school and the alimony from my estranged father we wouldn't have made it. It's frustrating that she cannot live close to where her primary health care providers practice and cannot even get to them on her own any more. I wish we'd spend less money as a society on jails and war and more on eliminating poverty and researching ways to enhance the human condition.
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  > When I feed the poor, they call me a saint, > but when I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist. > > - Dom Helder Camara
- conroe64 14y ago
  It's kind of convenient that he didn't mention food stamps, section 8 (subsidized housing), and medicaid/medicare. All of which are on top of the $661 a month, and make it definitely livable.
subpixel 14y ago
One of the most devastating things about this disease is that the majority of its sufferers refuse medication, based on the fear, distrust, and paranoia brought on by their condition. To be sure, medication is not always effective for schizophrenia, but the disease's course without medication is a terrible one. I'm not sure how schizophrenia is handled in other countries, but in the US you can't force medication except in a hospital (often via the ER). And there is a dire lack of facilities that specialize in treating and supporting people with schizophrenia.
- alexpenny 14y ago
  Thank you for bringing this up. It's often looked over from those not experienced with mental illness. A close relative has been affected by mental issues and is too paranoid to get help from it. She's still well enough to talk to me and remember who I am, but is so far in another reality that there is nothing you can do to help. It's a terrible illness and for a lot of people it's all downhill.
- DanBC 14y ago
  In the UK there are several ways a person can be "detained under section of the mental health act" - there are a variety of short detentions that can be started by a qualified nurse and agreed by a doctor; or by a police officer to take someone to a place of safety; and longer stays for assessment; and then 6 month detentions that have to be agreed by two doctors and an Approved Mental Health Professional (usually a social worker). Once on a section medication can be forced. But lack of capacity to make the choice is not automatic, and so people have to be careful when forcing treatment. This is especially true if there are "Rainy Day Action Plans" or "advanced directives" where the patient has (while well) laid out plans for their treatment when ill. There are also community treatment orders where people can be forced to take medication while living in the community. In theory there are protections for patients. In practice there's a scary amount of abuse of the system. Doctors use coercion (they say "go in voluntarily or I'll section you", with they must not do) or once in hospital patients are forced to take medication which they disagree with, and which they haven't consented to, and which they've had previous bad effects from, while not allowed to take a medication that they've used before. The UK has a complicated system of NHS (free) health trusts buying provision from private hospitals. This especially happens with mental health services. Services for young people are underfunded and over crowded. Services for people with learning disability are the same. These are some of the most vulnerable people in our society; they may have suffered horrific abuse at the hands of a family member; and abuse may continue when they go to hospital. (There are a number of high profile cases in the UK that came to light last year.) When $1,500 of tax payer money is being used every day to detain young anorexic women in hospital you don't want former Mugabe torturers working with them. (http://nehandaradio.com/2011/07/19/mugabe-cio-henchman-in-uk-court/ http://nehandaradio.com/2011/07/19/mugabe-cio-henchman-in-uk...) Having said that, we have good services for people with psychotic illness. And we've developed good services for "people with first episode of psychotic illness" because early intervention is helpful.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
yanivfr 14y ago
Great story...
danso 14y ago
Besides the story of unconditional love, I'm completely amazed that it happened through Craigslist, of all the places in which you can meet someone today
steveklabnik 14y ago
There is a person with schizophrenia who posts to HN, who is shadowbanned due to the comments they leave, which are nonsensical due to their illness. Turn 'showdead' on in your profile, then hit http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos and now http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=SparrowOS http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=SparrowOS . They've been writing their own operating system in assembly for the last few years: http://www.losethos.com/ http://www.losethos.com/ and now http://sparrowos.com/ http://sparrowos.com/ For more: http://qaa.ath.cx/LoseThos.html http://qaa.ath.cx/LoseThos.html
- fwr 14y ago
  This is fascinating, I highly recommend reading through the last two links, truly riveting stuff.
- IamBren 14y ago
  Wow - those are some troubling comments.
  - corin_ 14y ago
    While I feel I probably ought to be more compassionate, I have to say that every time I see one of his comments, reading it brings a smile to my face. Would love him to read a (short) autobiography some day, he does seem incredibly interesting, smart, intense and of course somewhat unstable. For anyone interested, here's a video in which he introduces his OS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAr-xYtBFbY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAr-xYtBFbY
    - DanBC 14y ago
      Anyone who's used Usenet will be aware of Mike Corley - the MI5 guy. He has been banned from most UK ISPs for breaching their TOS - his rate of posting to Usenet was prolific. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-london/plain/A694523 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-london/plain/A694523) (http://www.mi5.com/ http://www.mi5.com/) Responses to him ranged from people interested in him as a person, and in his treatment (or lack of); through to hostility at his very many posts and his attempts to evade filters; to really unpleasant baiting of a person with a mental illness or nasty mocking.
chernevik 14y ago
God bless you. I have worked with people like this, seen marriages to schizophrenics (somewhat less severe that Sally), and seen families supporting children with severe autism. Many of these are wonderful people and you are blessed to be able to see this. But you, yourself, are going to need help to make this work. Doing this for 18 months is one thing but you are going to need to build serious structural support for yourself to make the long haul. Build friend and family relationships where you can talk about what you are going through and which are committed to helping you through it. Make money, save as much as you can and avoid debt like plague, you already have enough stress in your life. Get a life insurance policy, get a will that creates a trust for Sally and receives the proceeds of the policy. If you are of any faith consider building up your church community. You are essentially married to a not-normal person. You're going to have not-normal problems. It's okay to feel sad and tired and frustrated. Have people around you to help carry the load. You have taken on a vocation as mental health advocate and social worker. Case management, navigation of the health system, is actually a profession, if you look around you'll probably find tools and practices to help you deal with the enormous administrative overhead involved with services. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should go get yourself checked out for psychological and emotional dysfunction. You are clearly yourself not-normal, which is awesome, but take seriously the possibility that you've got weaknesses of your own that need work. If you had ADHD or depression meds would make enormous improvements in your functionality. Even if it's all good, being in therapy, even only once a month, might not be a bad idea. Having a professional who knows you and can spot signs of depression or stress or anxiety could be handy. I can't say enough how much I admire your vision and determination. My apologies if all of this has already occurred to you. Please take care of yourself.
- SparrowOS 14y ago
  Catatonia? sigh. Chemical lobotomies. Don't worry, God is just. God says... surmounted That's_gonna_leave_a_mark mad seeking Surely dialogue discipline Sudden soughtest Rhetoric ghastly sings weaving Babylon swiftness itching wallowed well-drunk whitherward Fish so lowest eloquent is sons Head crosses harsh calculate IS affirm passes hurried not_in_my_wildest_dreams likeness homo affect belongeth folk recite composed ofThe grew encourage abstinence dispensing influence refuge enemy excel fixed replenishing hid ehheh_thats_all_folks composed lord perish
Morcane 14y ago
I think you're making a big mistake. During a previous relationship I was in, it turned out she had borderline personality disorder; it nearly destroyed me. Be careful, that's all I can say.
batgaijin 14y ago
I highly recommend looking into the work of Paris Williams: http://brainblogger.com/2012/08/07/schizophrenia-and-psychosis-brain-disease-or-existential-crisis/ http://brainblogger.com/2012/08/07/schizophrenia-and-psychos... http://brainblogger.com/2012/06/23/is-schizophrenia-really-a-brain-disease/ http://brainblogger.com/2012/06/23/is-schizophrenia-really-a... http://brainblogger.com/2012/05/29/full-recovery-from-schizophrenia/ http://brainblogger.com/2012/05/29/full-recovery-from-schizo... He also has a book called "Rethinking Madness" which is amazing. Basically, there is no medical evidence for classifying schizophrenia as a disease. He believes that it is a state the mind creates for itself when it's surroundings stress the person out too much. There are very high recovery rates for schizophrenia in 3rd world countries, which he believes is due to the lack of medication.
- chimeracoder 14y ago
  > There are very high recovery rates for schizophrenia in 3rd world countries, which he believes is due to the lack of medication. Looking at the state of schizophrenics in India, I find this hard to believe.
  - Alex3917 14y ago
    If you're looking at scizophrenics then by definition you're looking at the ones who haven't recovered. My understanding though is that they don't just do better because they're given less drugs, it's also because of social differences in terms of how families interact with each other.
    - chimeracoder 14y ago
      > If you're looking at scizophrenics then by definition you're looking at the ones who haven't recovered. Well, yes, it's really easy to say that a disease doesn't exist if you ignore all the people who are suffering from it. > they don't just do better because they're given less drugs, it's also because of social differences in terms of how families interact with each other. What "social differences"? Schizophrenics in India are far more likely to go undiagnosed and untreated, which only exacerbates the problems for them and their families. That's a big difference from saying that there's a high recovery rate, let alone that it's not a disease.
kristenlee 14y ago
Unfortunately this relationship has the makings of a codependent relationship. When you combine a man who is probably insecure since he searches for dates on craigslist and a woman with a litany of mental issues you generally have a codependent relationship. The insecure man needs to feel "needed" and the women needs to be "saved". Most of these relationships do not end well and lead to long-term unhappiness for both parties.
- IamBren 14y ago
  I'm surprised nobody else on his blog or on HN has mentioned this. I didn't find this post heartwarming as much as I found it gut-wrenching, but only because I've been there myself to a lesser degree (which was still terribly exhausting and heartbreaking in so many ways).
- conradfr 14y ago
  I kinka thought that when he casually says he didn't want to watch the fireworks, while I guess it was only because she wouldn't.
- chernevik 14y ago
  Well, yeah. That's certainly a risk here, isn't it? And what shall the gentleman do? "Well I love you but it's probably a mistake because I'm probably a mess myself so let's just walk away from it?" Even were this situation as bad as you imagine that strikes me as a soul-killing response to problems. I agree this looks rough but I've seen some very bad situations that ended up looking like something from Disney. Those situations had heroes and those heroes went through some crazy shit. There is hope. So. The guy is going for it. Are we satisfied to comment that it will all end in tears? Or shall we look for some way to help it to a better end? It isn't enough here to note the risk. You have to offer something constructive. I don't say "not hard", perhaps this relationship is a terrible idea and if it is so then it is no kindness to pretend otherwise. But the OP simply isn't going to hear "dude, co-dependent, not good". If you see trouble clearly enough to say so then you have a duty to offer some path around it or through it.
  - 14y ago
michaelochurch 14y ago
Good luck, OP. Major props for seeing someone with a horrible disease (that terrifies most people, hence the stigma) as a human. You have a hard road ahead of you. Some advice, from someone with plenty of experience with bipolar disorder (family, romantic relationships, business partners): * Study Eastern approaches to mental health and spirituality. Buddhism will accept you regardless of whether you have any metaphysical beliefs whatsoever. "You may not believe in God, but God believes in you." (Actually, Buddhism is theologically agnostic and compatible with theism or atheism, but that's an aside.) Don't expect miracles, because it takes decades to get good at this and mentally ill people can't "meditate out of" their illnesses, and but the insights into the mind from meditation and yoga can help both of you. * You both should avoid all recreational drugs, including alcohol and tobacco. Both of you. Normal people can use drugs like psilocybin, marijuana and LSD with low levels of risk. You can't. Even if you're neurologically normal, your circumstances are abnormal and these drugs are unpredictable even in the best circumstances. * You have hard travels ahead of you. It's probably good, even if your mental health is totally normal, for you to see a therapist. * Exercise. It won't always clear everything away, but it will make the situation better.
- lilsunnybee 14y ago
  It's not a disease it's a condition. Sorry just a lot of people would find that word offensive.
giardini 14y ago
Be careful who you fall in love with. While it is easy to fall in love with a person who is objectively perfection, it is also possible to fall in love with someone who is deeply flawed. The strength of the bond is no less. Sometimes the old method of having one's parents choose a mate appears to be the better thing. Some cultures will investigate a potential mate's family background several generations looking for physical or psychological problems, thus averting potential disaster or the bearing of flawed offspring. On the other hand statistics show that when love strikes, such marriages last longer and result in more children than arranged marriages. Can you choose who you fall in love with? Likely no, but you can know when it's happening and terminate the process if you see serious warning signs. In this story the warning signs were explicitly posted at the entrance gate.
- lilsunnybee 14y ago
  Aren't you lucky you don't have a severe mental illness? Obviously anyone that does should be avoided like the plague, regardless of how many good qualities and virtues they have about them. If you're that broken, you just don't deserve romance and love. But obviously life is still worth living, so don't kill yourself silly!
  - Benferhat 14y ago
    > If you're that broken, you just don't deserve romance and love. Woah, woah, woah. Surely you don't mean that anyone deserves my or your or anyone else's romance and love. These things don't mean anything unless they're freely given.
- dkarl 14y ago
  I bailed on a similar situation where I could feel myself falling for someone with schizo-affective disorder with a side of bipolar disorder. I certainly understand where you're coming from. I think the question is whether you can know someone apart from their mental illness. The woman in my case was extremely functional despite ongoing symptoms, but she also behaved destructively. She was skilled and enthusiastic at creating drama between people and heedless of the consequences of her personal behavior. She was good at creating beautiful things, situations, and emotions, but compulsive about destroying them. This is a bit confusing to talk about, because the terms colloquially applied to such behavior (the insensitivity of which the current context makes clear) are "crazy" or "psycho." Every time she did something destructive, I had to ask myself: is she doing this because she's mentally ill, or because she's "psycho?" Meaning, in less offensive language, is this purely mental illness, or is she also a cruel, capricious, irresponsible person? I couldn't even be sure it was valid to ask the question, but my intuition said the latter. She was just as destructive to herself as she was towards everyone else, but then again, so are many people who simply have "issues" without major mental illness. On the other hand, she had ongoing symptoms including auditory hallucinations (her version of "well" was when she knew they weren't real), and she often made strange connections between things, strange jumps in conversation, which she couldn't explain coherently. I always felt guilty about holding her responsible for her behavior. After I cut off contact with her, I felt very guilty about it at first, because I had such intense feelings for her. I thought, "If I run away from her, who will ever stay?" When I caught myself thinking that way, though, I knew I had made the right decision. The reason I tell my story is that it's possible Kas has satisfied himself on which aspects of Sally's behavior and personality are "her" and which aspects are due to her mental illness. He says she's "Guileless, straightforward, self-aware, good-hearted, open-minded, always truthful, always kind," which does not describe someone acting under the influence of schizophrenia. When he says he would throw himself in front of a bus if she asked him to, he's clearly not talking about the schizophrenic Sally, unless he has a death wish. If he has separated her from her mental illness, perhaps it's no different from loving someone who has any other disability. This is all bound up in the question of free will, of course. People generally believe in free will, and they treat mental illness as a limitation on free will. If you believe that personal history is just as binding as mental illness, then any discrimination on the basis of a person's behavior is equally just or unjust whether they are mentally ill or not.
ctdonath 14y ago
$661/mo Just throwing money at someone with a tenuous grasp on reality is not kindness. More won't help.
- DanBC 14y ago
  I ask, gently and politely, what the alternative is? I'm genuinely interested in any ideas and I'm not asking to be confrontational. I'm mostly asking about people who don't pose a danger to others, but who have several episodes a year where they might require a short in-patient stay in hospital.
  - ars 14y ago
    A type of assisted living maybe? Someplace where food, shelter and medical care are provided, but not locked or anything - people are free to come and go (including to a job) as they please. Individual rooms with privacy of course.
- illuminate 14y ago
  Yes, throwing someone with crippling mental issues out in the street is far more "kind". It's a stopgap, but one that exists because there are no good solutions. If you'd like to change the situation you're free, but sniping and scoffing is not mercy.
- lilsunnybee 14y ago
  It's not money to cure the condition with! It's living expenses. How much do you live on per month?
guylhem 14y ago
I'll cast a dissenting opinion. Do you really, honestly think the author will be happy - and for long (say more than 2 years, after the initial thrill of doing something odd and new)? It does not looks like a sane relation to me, but more like a relation based on needs - such as the need to "save" someone (frequent with young upperclass women) or such as a profound emotional need to display love. "I'll throw myself in front of a bus for her if she wants it" - this doesn't looks like a good thing to say about a relationship - especially about a relationship with someone hearing voices who might recommend such things. Are normal persons (or life) so boring that one needs to import another person problems - especially unfixable problems given the state of our technology regarding schizophrenia? (my cousin has a severe form and spends most of his time in various institutions)
- DanBC 14y ago
  > "I'll throw myself in front of a bus for her if she wants it" - this doesn't looks like a good thing to say about a relationship I tend to agree. But it's something that common to many relationships, not just those involving people in unhealthy relationships. > - especially about a relationship with someone hearing voices who might recommend such things. I'm not sure people with a psychotic illness recommend directly that another person should throw themselves in front of a literal bus. And I hope that OP has enough insight to recognise when the (metaphorical) bus is real or a product of illness. > Are normal persons (or life) so boring that one needs to import another person problems - especially unfixable problems given the state of our technology regarding schizophrenia? I am not talking about the OP here. With that disclaimer out of the way: sometimes life with someone who has a severe mental illness is just more fun; it's more exciting; there's more stuff to do. This can be useful - you go to different places and experience life in a different way. Or it can be unhealthy, with dependence and enabling and people wanting to "fix" others and getting locked into a cycle of recovery and relapse. The pre-mania phase of bi-polar can be incredibly productive for some people.
- berntb 14y ago
  >>Do you really, honestly think the author will be happy - and for long I don't give that good odds for their happiness. But as good odds as I give my self. It is 9 months in, the author and the woman are incredibly in love. Many people never get that, at all. Ever. I had it and lost it. So I disagree with your dissenting opinion. It is worth trying. The hard part is to leave failed relationships before getting so much scars that you will be emotionally dysfunctional after the mourning phase. If their relationship fails, I hope they get out ok. [edit: The failure modes here seems as _the_ scary part.] And now a New Year resolution that will garner me many an upvote -- talk computer stuff on HN. :-)
gcmartinelli 14y ago
I recommend to all reading the novella by Machado de Assis called "O alienista" (The Psychiatrist). I couldn't find an english version online, but here is a review: http://quarterlyconversation.com/on-the-alienist-by-machado-de-assis http://quarterlyconversation.com/on-the-alienist-by-machado-...
jere 14y ago
>She didn't know that numbers don't have "assigned colors" to them. For some people (most of them, I imagine, not schizophrenics) they do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia >Our meeting was the fluke of the century. I happened to be scrounging around on Craigslist one day looking for a furniture item. Sally happened to be on Craigslist looking for pet supplies. Read: one person was posting to a personals section, the other browsing. Not much of a fluke.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  As a small child, I used to have a strong association between numbers/letters and colors, though that has faded to the point where I barely remember them. The fact that 2 is yellow is strongest in my mind. For the record, I do not suffer from schizophrenia.
  - mikedmiked 14y ago
    No no no, 3 is yellow, didn't you get the memo? This is what it was for me when I was about 7 (no mental illness): 1- Red - Sharpness 2- Blue - Blunt/powerful 3- Yellow - Soft 4- Green 6- Orange 7- Purple 9- Black 11-19- Shiny/Metallic colours
bennny 14y ago
This is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read.
bguthrie 14y ago
My late brother-in-law was diagnosed with schizo-affective disorder last year. Unstable, paranoid, and off his meds, he took his own life a few months later, still in his mid-twenties. He left a surreal suicide note. His family wants someone to blame. It has been very hard. Thanks for sharing your and Sally's experiences. It takes a lot of courage to do.
Benferhat 14y ago
Finding out that someone you already care about has a mental illness is really tough. What do you do? Run for the hills, or stand by their side? If they were physically sick, it would be a no-brainer: it could just as easily be you who's sick with the flu or cancer or what have you, and you'd want your friends to be there for you. But when it comes to mental illness, it's different. Those afflicted are somehow no longer a part of our in-group, and it becomes easier to turn our backs on them. This post is a sort of therapy for me as well, you see, as I've turned my back on two similarly afflicted former friends. Difficult decisions indeed.
imran 14y ago
When reading your post it reminded of my own "sally". She is straightforward , kind hearted, truthful, caring etc. When we find such a person in our lives , the love that comes out is purely unconditional! We finally realise that no matter what this person says, looks, behaves, what she does or does not, or if the world may come to an end, no matter what we will love with uncondition love. Its a gift (love) to the pure hearted from god himself!
_feda_ 14y ago
Brilliant post kas. I'm impressed by your loyalty and cogency. If the two of you ever considered having kids, there'd be a few things you'd do well to prepare for. I am the child of a severe manic-depressive/alcoholic. I can't begin to tell you the myriad ways this has effected my development, but the influence runs deep and strong. Your children will grow up in an environment of chaos, where crisis is often the default state of affairs. I'm not saying your kids will, in the grander scheme of life, be any worse off for the potentially unstable environment in which they grow, but it can make them feel unusual, left out and alone in comparison to their peers. With any luck, they'll be as well-rounded, if not moreso than anyone else, not in spite of but because of their experiences with a close relative suffering from severe mental illness. I wish you the best of luck and send all my love to you both.
- GBond 14y ago
  He had mentioned in the article she can no longer have children.
winter_blue 14y ago
> It's an outrage that a disabled person is expected to live independently on $661 a month. > It's the kind of thing that makes me ashamed of my own country. I think the author is extremely ungrateful for having been born in a country that even provides _that_. Do you know that _software engineers_ at Microsoft India, yes Microsoft of all places, get paid Rs. 30'000/month ($600/month) when they join in as a trainee? People, we're talking about software developers under the monicker of "trainee"; people who've been through 4-year college _and_ been smart enough to get accepted to Microsoft India (in a highly competitive country) -- getting paid $600/month. This guys has all his facts wrong when he says $600/month is bad in Gabon, and he's being totally ungrateful when he criticizes the U.S. gov. for what they're giving; not showing an iota of thankfulness. Does the author know nearly 50% of children (hundreds of millions of children) in _India_ are malnourished? In India, a completely healthy person who can't find a job, will be left to starve by both government and society. It's a ruthless, cold, heartless nation compared to the government of the U.S. In fact in India, even food meant for the poor is stolen by greedy politicians. It's a terrible country. You should be thankful to be an American, instead of expecting even more from a government that far surpasses most countries in the world in terms of what it does.
- acuozzo 14y ago
  The fact that other countries provide less does not imply that America currently provides enough.
- precisioncoder 14y ago
  I always find it a little silly that people assume their country is amazing without looking up the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state if you look at welfar expenditure by GDP you'll notice that it ranks around 26 assuming I counted correctly, behind most of the western world. This is not intended to hate on America, one of the wonderful and horrible things about America is that there is amazing opportunity and terrifying risk to living in the country. Most developed countries even out the risk and reward a little more. I find this fascinating and I wonder how many factors such as innovation, attitude, ambition, etc have related causation (rather than just correlation).
lustlosigkeit 14y ago
My goodness...I am in a similar situation to the lady mentioned in this article, yet arguably more functional, and I haven't even come close to meeting someone who was this tolerant and accepting. Is this guy just very special? I can't figure it out. I alternate between brutal honesty on my condition (the approach of this woman) and hiding it (what I'm going through now), and I'm not sure if it's better or worse either way.
- lustlosigkeit 14y ago
  Oh geez, I think I figured it out - I hadn't read the whole article fully. I'm pretty aware of people and tend to stay away from "savior" types who think they can come in on a white horse and save the day. As well intentioned as they might be, the behavior often seems unhealthy. I don't know enough about this particular situation but the phrase "I'll throw myself in front of a bus for her if she wants it" seems like a typical thing one of them would say. I often marvel at the dysfunction of seemingly "normal" people going around without any sort of diagnosis, compared to my actual behavior, which is always at least somewhat stigmatized. I hope that for their sake the relationship works out for them, but for my own peace of mind, I push those people away...

433 points by techdog 14y ago

My heart felt feelings for you my friend, your that kind of man, which I want to be, someone who has truly lived the saying: Beauty stays till 40-50, Intellect till 60-70, after that, only those who love each other for the heck of it, truly stay happily ever after.

mmariani 14y ago

No doubt there's a lot of hard work ahead, for both of us. But you know what? I never saw anything in this life that was worth a damn that didn't involve hard work. The idea is not to shun the hard work but to embrace it. Embrace it with both arms, squeeze it hard, and accept it, not with fateful resignation but with the sure knowledge that if you do embrace it, good things will come, eventually. The alternative, giving up, is unthinkable. That, exactly that, is what life is all about. If you don't get it don't bother living life until you get it. Simply put, because your existence won't have any meaning to drive yourself through the hard work ahead through the path that will change a life beside your own. To the OP, people like you still give me hope about the mankind. All my best feelings and thoughts will be with you and your beloved one. I'm sure you'll get through that, and live happy. It's just a matter of time.

scribu 14y ago
"If you don't get it don't bother living life until you get it." So, WoW?
- wildranter 14y ago
  Perhaps you should wad a book instead. http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-Life/dp/1118024516 http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-Life/dp/11180245...

DanBC 14y ago

Thank you so much for having the courage to openly discuss your relationship with a person with a mental illness. Your calm words will, I hope, do a lot to explain what it's like. > I think most guys, on a first date, upon hearing a young lady talk seriously about being visited by aliens, would probably find some reason to cut the evening short. I merely listened. Sally "knew" the alien visitation wasn't real. But it felt real enough to her when it happened. So I asked her to tell me about it in detail. And I listened, without passing judgment. She ultimately laughed the whole thing off, but I knew it was an important part of her reality. Talking to people who have hallucinations or who hear voices is sometimes fascinating. Sometimes they start the conversation and you don't know that anything is different, and because they are not lying the story sounds utterly convincing. And then, maybe, some odd details start creeping in. Or maybe the story is about alien visitation and it's obviously not true from the start, even though the person telling the tale it utterly believable. > She didn't know that when a yellow car pulled in front of her on the road, it didn't mean there was danger ahead. At their gentlest these paranoias and delusions seem similar to everyday superstitions. I think that's what makes it harder for people to understand just how strong the feelings are. > As a disabled person (who can't work a normal job, because of the severity of her residual symptoms), Sally gets a monthly check for $661. That's it. That's all. No more. Here you go: $661 a month, now go take care of yourself. This is the thing I really want to talk about. I live in the UK. We've had a variety of different disability benefits over the years. Unfortunately those benefits have not kept current with modern treatment; nor with modern political directions; and now we're in the unpleasant situation of needing to cut our massive welfare bill, but not having any suitable alternatives for people yet, and not having adequate support for disabled people. For example, in the 1980's people with bad back were told to not move, to lie flat on their back on a firm mattress. Many people were signed off work for years because of bad back. We know now that's terrible advice. If there's no underlying illness causing the backache (and there can be serious illness causing backache) you should carefully take pain killers, and keep moving. Some exercise will help recovery, and some other exercise will prevent relapse. So, now, with bad back you might need a bit of time off work to let the pain killers start working, and then a bit of time to get the exercise going, but then you can return to work full time. Applying that to MH problems we see that people with mood disorders like depression were cocooned away from stress. "Don't go back to work, because you'll trigger another episode of illness". But many people want to work. They do not want to live a life on benefits. Ideally you have a programme that finds people the work they want to do, and then gives them time-unlimited support for that work. That support would be things like helping someone sort out transport; explaining to a boss what reasonable adjustments (a legal concept) means; discussion about difficulties staying in work and how to resolve those; discussion about any prejudice that is happening etc. Such programmes exist, but are patchy and usually very busy with long wait-lists. And because our benefits system hasn't caught up people can get caught in nasty situations. There's a variety of benefit schemes to help people get back into work, but if you're working (even with a severe, enduring MH problem) they might take the disability benefits away from you, which can then shut down other parts of your support network; and which can be very stressful for some people. Coping with complex benefit and tax systems is not helpful when you've just started your first job in 12 years. So, while we have made a lot of progress, there is still a lot of progress to be made. I wish you and Sally all the best for the future!

shail 14y ago

Now this is the god of love stories. Thanks for sharing your life with us.

cldwalker 14y ago

To the OP, thanks for encouraging others to think about mental illness and improving the situation in the US. Side note to others - in my experience with people with schizophrenia, they usually prefer to be referred to as just that, "a person with schizophrenia", not "a schizophrenic". People are more than just their illness.

alanctgardner2 14y ago
This is in line with the APA recommendation for referring to anyone with a disability - psychological or physical. They aren`t characterized by their disability; they`re a person foremost.

jre 14y ago

This is an inspiring story to start the new year with. Thank you.

agentultra 14y ago

Wonderful story, thanks for sharing. It's an outrage that a disabled person is expected to live independently on $661 a month. Even in Canada where we have social assistance and state healthcare the disability pensions here are abysmal. I spent my adolescent years growing up with a single disabled mother and that's pretty much all she gets to this day; less than minimum wage. If it wasn't for me working long hours after school and the alimony from my estranged father we wouldn't have made it. It's frustrating that she cannot live close to where her primary health care providers practice and cannot even get to them on her own any more. I wish we'd spend less money as a society on jails and war and more on eliminating poverty and researching ways to enhance the human condition.

steveklabnik 14y ago
> When I feed the poor, they call me a saint, > but when I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist. > > - Dom Helder Camara
conroe64 14y ago
It's kind of convenient that he didn't mention food stamps, section 8 (subsidized housing), and medicaid/medicare. All of which are on top of the $661 a month, and make it definitely livable.

subpixel 14y ago

One of the most devastating things about this disease is that the majority of its sufferers refuse medication, based on the fear, distrust, and paranoia brought on by their condition. To be sure, medication is not always effective for schizophrenia, but the disease's course without medication is a terrible one. I'm not sure how schizophrenia is handled in other countries, but in the US you can't force medication except in a hospital (often via the ER). And there is a dire lack of facilities that specialize in treating and supporting people with schizophrenia.

alexpenny 14y ago
Thank you for bringing this up. It's often looked over from those not experienced with mental illness. A close relative has been affected by mental issues and is too paranoid to get help from it. She's still well enough to talk to me and remember who I am, but is so far in another reality that there is nothing you can do to help. It's a terrible illness and for a lot of people it's all downhill.
DanBC 14y ago
In the UK there are several ways a person can be "detained under section of the mental health act" - there are a variety of short detentions that can be started by a qualified nurse and agreed by a doctor; or by a police officer to take someone to a place of safety; and longer stays for assessment; and then 6 month detentions that have to be agreed by two doctors and an Approved Mental Health Professional (usually a social worker). Once on a section medication can be forced. But lack of capacity to make the choice is not automatic, and so people have to be careful when forcing treatment. This is especially true if there are "Rainy Day Action Plans" or "advanced directives" where the patient has (while well) laid out plans for their treatment when ill. There are also community treatment orders where people can be forced to take medication while living in the community. In theory there are protections for patients. In practice there's a scary amount of abuse of the system. Doctors use coercion (they say "go in voluntarily or I'll section you", with they must not do) or once in hospital patients are forced to take medication which they disagree with, and which they haven't consented to, and which they've had previous bad effects from, while not allowed to take a medication that they've used before. The UK has a complicated system of NHS (free) health trusts buying provision from private hospitals. This especially happens with mental health services. Services for young people are underfunded and over crowded. Services for people with learning disability are the same. These are some of the most vulnerable people in our society; they may have suffered horrific abuse at the hands of a family member; and abuse may continue when they go to hospital. (There are a number of high profile cases in the UK that came to light last year.) When $1,500 of tax payer money is being used every day to detain young anorexic women in hospital you don't want former Mugabe torturers working with them. (http://nehandaradio.com/2011/07/19/mugabe-cio-henchman-in-uk-court/ http://nehandaradio.com/2011/07/19/mugabe-cio-henchman-in-uk...) Having said that, we have good services for people with psychotic illness. And we've developed good services for "people with first episode of psychotic illness" because early intervention is helpful.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

yanivfr 14y ago

Great story...

danso 14y ago

Besides the story of unconditional love, I'm completely amazed that it happened through Craigslist, of all the places in which you can meet someone today

steveklabnik 14y ago

There is a person with schizophrenia who posts to HN, who is shadowbanned due to the comments they leave, which are nonsensical due to their illness. Turn 'showdead' on in your profile, then hit http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos and now http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=SparrowOS http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=SparrowOS . They've been writing their own operating system in assembly for the last few years: http://www.losethos.com/ http://www.losethos.com/ and now http://sparrowos.com/ http://sparrowos.com/ For more: http://qaa.ath.cx/LoseThos.html http://qaa.ath.cx/LoseThos.html

fwr 14y ago
This is fascinating, I highly recommend reading through the last two links, truly riveting stuff.
IamBren 14y ago
Wow - those are some troubling comments.
- corin_ 14y ago
  While I feel I probably ought to be more compassionate, I have to say that every time I see one of his comments, reading it brings a smile to my face. Would love him to read a (short) autobiography some day, he does seem incredibly interesting, smart, intense and of course somewhat unstable. For anyone interested, here's a video in which he introduces his OS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAr-xYtBFbY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAr-xYtBFbY
  - DanBC 14y ago
    Anyone who's used Usenet will be aware of Mike Corley - the MI5 guy. He has been banned from most UK ISPs for breaching their TOS - his rate of posting to Usenet was prolific. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-london/plain/A694523 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-london/plain/A694523) (http://www.mi5.com/ http://www.mi5.com/) Responses to him ranged from people interested in him as a person, and in his treatment (or lack of); through to hostility at his very many posts and his attempts to evade filters; to really unpleasant baiting of a person with a mental illness or nasty mocking.

chernevik 14y ago

God bless you. I have worked with people like this, seen marriages to schizophrenics (somewhat less severe that Sally), and seen families supporting children with severe autism. Many of these are wonderful people and you are blessed to be able to see this. But you, yourself, are going to need help to make this work. Doing this for 18 months is one thing but you are going to need to build serious structural support for yourself to make the long haul. Build friend and family relationships where you can talk about what you are going through and which are committed to helping you through it. Make money, save as much as you can and avoid debt like plague, you already have enough stress in your life. Get a life insurance policy, get a will that creates a trust for Sally and receives the proceeds of the policy. If you are of any faith consider building up your church community. You are essentially married to a not-normal person. You're going to have not-normal problems. It's okay to feel sad and tired and frustrated. Have people around you to help carry the load. You have taken on a vocation as mental health advocate and social worker. Case management, navigation of the health system, is actually a profession, if you look around you'll probably find tools and practices to help you deal with the enormous administrative overhead involved with services. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you should go get yourself checked out for psychological and emotional dysfunction. You are clearly yourself not-normal, which is awesome, but take seriously the possibility that you've got weaknesses of your own that need work. If you had ADHD or depression meds would make enormous improvements in your functionality. Even if it's all good, being in therapy, even only once a month, might not be a bad idea. Having a professional who knows you and can spot signs of depression or stress or anxiety could be handy. I can't say enough how much I admire your vision and determination. My apologies if all of this has already occurred to you. Please take care of yourself.

SparrowOS 14y ago
Catatonia? sigh. Chemical lobotomies. Don't worry, God is just. God says... surmounted That's_gonna_leave_a_mark mad seeking Surely dialogue discipline Sudden soughtest Rhetoric ghastly sings weaving Babylon swiftness itching wallowed well-drunk whitherward Fish so lowest eloquent is sons Head crosses harsh calculate IS affirm passes hurried not_in_my_wildest_dreams likeness homo affect belongeth folk recite composed ofThe grew encourage abstinence dispensing influence refuge enemy excel fixed replenishing hid ehheh_thats_all_folks composed lord perish

Morcane 14y ago

I think you're making a big mistake. During a previous relationship I was in, it turned out she had borderline personality disorder; it nearly destroyed me. Be careful, that's all I can say.

batgaijin 14y ago

I highly recommend looking into the work of Paris Williams: http://brainblogger.com/2012/08/07/schizophrenia-and-psychosis-brain-disease-or-existential-crisis/ http://brainblogger.com/2012/08/07/schizophrenia-and-psychos... http://brainblogger.com/2012/06/23/is-schizophrenia-really-a-brain-disease/ http://brainblogger.com/2012/06/23/is-schizophrenia-really-a... http://brainblogger.com/2012/05/29/full-recovery-from-schizophrenia/ http://brainblogger.com/2012/05/29/full-recovery-from-schizo... He also has a book called "Rethinking Madness" which is amazing. Basically, there is no medical evidence for classifying schizophrenia as a disease. He believes that it is a state the mind creates for itself when it's surroundings stress the person out too much. There are very high recovery rates for schizophrenia in 3rd world countries, which he believes is due to the lack of medication.

chimeracoder 14y ago
> There are very high recovery rates for schizophrenia in 3rd world countries, which he believes is due to the lack of medication. Looking at the state of schizophrenics in India, I find this hard to believe.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  If you're looking at scizophrenics then by definition you're looking at the ones who haven't recovered. My understanding though is that they don't just do better because they're given less drugs, it's also because of social differences in terms of how families interact with each other.
  - chimeracoder 14y ago
    > If you're looking at scizophrenics then by definition you're looking at the ones who haven't recovered. Well, yes, it's really easy to say that a disease doesn't exist if you ignore all the people who are suffering from it. > they don't just do better because they're given less drugs, it's also because of social differences in terms of how families interact with each other. What "social differences"? Schizophrenics in India are far more likely to go undiagnosed and untreated, which only exacerbates the problems for them and their families. That's a big difference from saying that there's a high recovery rate, let alone that it's not a disease.

kristenlee 14y ago

Unfortunately this relationship has the makings of a codependent relationship. When you combine a man who is probably insecure since he searches for dates on craigslist and a woman with a litany of mental issues you generally have a codependent relationship. The insecure man needs to feel "needed" and the women needs to be "saved". Most of these relationships do not end well and lead to long-term unhappiness for both parties.

IamBren 14y ago
I'm surprised nobody else on his blog or on HN has mentioned this. I didn't find this post heartwarming as much as I found it gut-wrenching, but only because I've been there myself to a lesser degree (which was still terribly exhausting and heartbreaking in so many ways).
conradfr 14y ago
I kinka thought that when he casually says he didn't want to watch the fireworks, while I guess it was only because she wouldn't.
chernevik 14y ago
Well, yeah. That's certainly a risk here, isn't it? And what shall the gentleman do? "Well I love you but it's probably a mistake because I'm probably a mess myself so let's just walk away from it?" Even were this situation as bad as you imagine that strikes me as a soul-killing response to problems. I agree this looks rough but I've seen some very bad situations that ended up looking like something from Disney. Those situations had heroes and those heroes went through some crazy shit. There is hope. So. The guy is going for it. Are we satisfied to comment that it will all end in tears? Or shall we look for some way to help it to a better end? It isn't enough here to note the risk. You have to offer something constructive. I don't say "not hard", perhaps this relationship is a terrible idea and if it is so then it is no kindness to pretend otherwise. But the OP simply isn't going to hear "dude, co-dependent, not good". If you see trouble clearly enough to say so then you have a duty to offer some path around it or through it.
- 14y ago

michaelochurch 14y ago

Good luck, OP. Major props for seeing someone with a horrible disease (that terrifies most people, hence the stigma) as a human. You have a hard road ahead of you. Some advice, from someone with plenty of experience with bipolar disorder (family, romantic relationships, business partners): * Study Eastern approaches to mental health and spirituality. Buddhism will accept you regardless of whether you have any metaphysical beliefs whatsoever. "You may not believe in God, but God believes in you." (Actually, Buddhism is theologically agnostic and compatible with theism or atheism, but that's an aside.) Don't expect miracles, because it takes decades to get good at this and mentally ill people can't "meditate out of" their illnesses, and but the insights into the mind from meditation and yoga can help both of you. * You both should avoid all recreational drugs, including alcohol and tobacco. Both of you. Normal people can use drugs like psilocybin, marijuana and LSD with low levels of risk. You can't. Even if you're neurologically normal, your circumstances are abnormal and these drugs are unpredictable even in the best circumstances. * You have hard travels ahead of you. It's probably good, even if your mental health is totally normal, for you to see a therapist. * Exercise. It won't always clear everything away, but it will make the situation better.

lilsunnybee 14y ago
It's not a disease it's a condition. Sorry just a lot of people would find that word offensive.

giardini 14y ago

Be careful who you fall in love with. While it is easy to fall in love with a person who is objectively perfection, it is also possible to fall in love with someone who is deeply flawed. The strength of the bond is no less. Sometimes the old method of having one's parents choose a mate appears to be the better thing. Some cultures will investigate a potential mate's family background several generations looking for physical or psychological problems, thus averting potential disaster or the bearing of flawed offspring. On the other hand statistics show that when love strikes, such marriages last longer and result in more children than arranged marriages. Can you choose who you fall in love with? Likely no, but you can know when it's happening and terminate the process if you see serious warning signs. In this story the warning signs were explicitly posted at the entrance gate.

lilsunnybee 14y ago
Aren't you lucky you don't have a severe mental illness? Obviously anyone that does should be avoided like the plague, regardless of how many good qualities and virtues they have about them. If you're that broken, you just don't deserve romance and love. But obviously life is still worth living, so don't kill yourself silly!
- Benferhat 14y ago
  > If you're that broken, you just don't deserve romance and love. Woah, woah, woah. Surely you don't mean that anyone deserves my or your or anyone else's romance and love. These things don't mean anything unless they're freely given.
dkarl 14y ago
I bailed on a similar situation where I could feel myself falling for someone with schizo-affective disorder with a side of bipolar disorder. I certainly understand where you're coming from. I think the question is whether you can know someone apart from their mental illness. The woman in my case was extremely functional despite ongoing symptoms, but she also behaved destructively. She was skilled and enthusiastic at creating drama between people and heedless of the consequences of her personal behavior. She was good at creating beautiful things, situations, and emotions, but compulsive about destroying them. This is a bit confusing to talk about, because the terms colloquially applied to such behavior (the insensitivity of which the current context makes clear) are "crazy" or "psycho." Every time she did something destructive, I had to ask myself: is she doing this because she's mentally ill, or because she's "psycho?" Meaning, in less offensive language, is this purely mental illness, or is she also a cruel, capricious, irresponsible person? I couldn't even be sure it was valid to ask the question, but my intuition said the latter. She was just as destructive to herself as she was towards everyone else, but then again, so are many people who simply have "issues" without major mental illness. On the other hand, she had ongoing symptoms including auditory hallucinations (her version of "well" was when she knew they weren't real), and she often made strange connections between things, strange jumps in conversation, which she couldn't explain coherently. I always felt guilty about holding her responsible for her behavior. After I cut off contact with her, I felt very guilty about it at first, because I had such intense feelings for her. I thought, "If I run away from her, who will ever stay?" When I caught myself thinking that way, though, I knew I had made the right decision. The reason I tell my story is that it's possible Kas has satisfied himself on which aspects of Sally's behavior and personality are "her" and which aspects are due to her mental illness. He says she's "Guileless, straightforward, self-aware, good-hearted, open-minded, always truthful, always kind," which does not describe someone acting under the influence of schizophrenia. When he says he would throw himself in front of a bus if she asked him to, he's clearly not talking about the schizophrenic Sally, unless he has a death wish. If he has separated her from her mental illness, perhaps it's no different from loving someone who has any other disability. This is all bound up in the question of free will, of course. People generally believe in free will, and they treat mental illness as a limitation on free will. If you believe that personal history is just as binding as mental illness, then any discrimination on the basis of a person's behavior is equally just or unjust whether they are mentally ill or not.

ctdonath 14y ago

$661/mo Just throwing money at someone with a tenuous grasp on reality is not kindness. More won't help.

DanBC 14y ago
I ask, gently and politely, what the alternative is? I'm genuinely interested in any ideas and I'm not asking to be confrontational. I'm mostly asking about people who don't pose a danger to others, but who have several episodes a year where they might require a short in-patient stay in hospital.
- ars 14y ago
  A type of assisted living maybe? Someplace where food, shelter and medical care are provided, but not locked or anything - people are free to come and go (including to a job) as they please. Individual rooms with privacy of course.
illuminate 14y ago
Yes, throwing someone with crippling mental issues out in the street is far more "kind". It's a stopgap, but one that exists because there are no good solutions. If you'd like to change the situation you're free, but sniping and scoffing is not mercy.
lilsunnybee 14y ago
It's not money to cure the condition with! It's living expenses. How much do you live on per month?

guylhem 14y ago

I'll cast a dissenting opinion. Do you really, honestly think the author will be happy - and for long (say more than 2 years, after the initial thrill of doing something odd and new)? It does not looks like a sane relation to me, but more like a relation based on needs - such as the need to "save" someone (frequent with young upperclass women) or such as a profound emotional need to display love. "I'll throw myself in front of a bus for her if she wants it" - this doesn't looks like a good thing to say about a relationship - especially about a relationship with someone hearing voices who might recommend such things. Are normal persons (or life) so boring that one needs to import another person problems - especially unfixable problems given the state of our technology regarding schizophrenia? (my cousin has a severe form and spends most of his time in various institutions)

DanBC 14y ago
> "I'll throw myself in front of a bus for her if she wants it" - this doesn't looks like a good thing to say about a relationship I tend to agree. But it's something that common to many relationships, not just those involving people in unhealthy relationships. > - especially about a relationship with someone hearing voices who might recommend such things. I'm not sure people with a psychotic illness recommend directly that another person should throw themselves in front of a literal bus. And I hope that OP has enough insight to recognise when the (metaphorical) bus is real or a product of illness. > Are normal persons (or life) so boring that one needs to import another person problems - especially unfixable problems given the state of our technology regarding schizophrenia? I am not talking about the OP here. With that disclaimer out of the way: sometimes life with someone who has a severe mental illness is just more fun; it's more exciting; there's more stuff to do. This can be useful - you go to different places and experience life in a different way. Or it can be unhealthy, with dependence and enabling and people wanting to "fix" others and getting locked into a cycle of recovery and relapse. The pre-mania phase of bi-polar can be incredibly productive for some people.
berntb 14y ago
>>Do you really, honestly think the author will be happy - and for long I don't give that good odds for their happiness. But as good odds as I give my self. It is 9 months in, the author and the woman are incredibly in love. Many people never get that, at all. Ever. I had it and lost it. So I disagree with your dissenting opinion. It is worth trying. The hard part is to leave failed relationships before getting so much scars that you will be emotionally dysfunctional after the mourning phase. If their relationship fails, I hope they get out ok. [edit: The failure modes here seems as _the_ scary part.] And now a New Year resolution that will garner me many an upvote -- talk computer stuff on HN. :-)

gcmartinelli 14y ago

I recommend to all reading the novella by Machado de Assis called "O alienista" (The Psychiatrist). I couldn't find an english version online, but here is a review: http://quarterlyconversation.com/on-the-alienist-by-machado-de-assis http://quarterlyconversation.com/on-the-alienist-by-machado-...

jere 14y ago

>She didn't know that numbers don't have "assigned colors" to them. For some people (most of them, I imagine, not schizophrenics) they do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia >Our meeting was the fluke of the century. I happened to be scrounging around on Craigslist one day looking for a furniture item. Sally happened to be on Craigslist looking for pet supplies. Read: one person was posting to a personals section, the other browsing. Not much of a fluke.

MartinCron 14y ago
As a small child, I used to have a strong association between numbers/letters and colors, though that has faded to the point where I barely remember them. The fact that 2 is yellow is strongest in my mind. For the record, I do not suffer from schizophrenia.
- mikedmiked 14y ago
  No no no, 3 is yellow, didn't you get the memo? This is what it was for me when I was about 7 (no mental illness): 1- Red - Sharpness 2- Blue - Blunt/powerful 3- Yellow - Soft 4- Green 6- Orange 7- Purple 9- Black 11-19- Shiny/Metallic colours

bennny 14y ago

This is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read.

bguthrie 14y ago

My late brother-in-law was diagnosed with schizo-affective disorder last year. Unstable, paranoid, and off his meds, he took his own life a few months later, still in his mid-twenties. He left a surreal suicide note. His family wants someone to blame. It has been very hard. Thanks for sharing your and Sally's experiences. It takes a lot of courage to do.

Benferhat 14y ago

Finding out that someone you already care about has a mental illness is really tough. What do you do? Run for the hills, or stand by their side? If they were physically sick, it would be a no-brainer: it could just as easily be you who's sick with the flu or cancer or what have you, and you'd want your friends to be there for you. But when it comes to mental illness, it's different. Those afflicted are somehow no longer a part of our in-group, and it becomes easier to turn our backs on them. This post is a sort of therapy for me as well, you see, as I've turned my back on two similarly afflicted former friends. Difficult decisions indeed.

imran 14y ago

When reading your post it reminded of my own "sally". She is straightforward , kind hearted, truthful, caring etc. When we find such a person in our lives , the love that comes out is purely unconditional! We finally realise that no matter what this person says, looks, behaves, what she does or does not, or if the world may come to an end, no matter what we will love with uncondition love. Its a gift (love) to the pure hearted from god himself!

_feda_ 14y ago

Brilliant post kas. I'm impressed by your loyalty and cogency. If the two of you ever considered having kids, there'd be a few things you'd do well to prepare for. I am the child of a severe manic-depressive/alcoholic. I can't begin to tell you the myriad ways this has effected my development, but the influence runs deep and strong. Your children will grow up in an environment of chaos, where crisis is often the default state of affairs. I'm not saying your kids will, in the grander scheme of life, be any worse off for the potentially unstable environment in which they grow, but it can make them feel unusual, left out and alone in comparison to their peers. With any luck, they'll be as well-rounded, if not moreso than anyone else, not in spite of but because of their experiences with a close relative suffering from severe mental illness. I wish you the best of luck and send all my love to you both.

GBond 14y ago
He had mentioned in the article she can no longer have children.

winter_blue 14y ago

> It's an outrage that a disabled person is expected to live independently on $661 a month. > It's the kind of thing that makes me ashamed of my own country. I think the author is extremely ungrateful for having been born in a country that even provides _that_. Do you know that _software engineers_ at Microsoft India, yes Microsoft of all places, get paid Rs. 30'000/month ($600/month) when they join in as a trainee? People, we're talking about software developers under the monicker of "trainee"; people who've been through 4-year college _and_ been smart enough to get accepted to Microsoft India (in a highly competitive country) -- getting paid $600/month. This guys has all his facts wrong when he says $600/month is bad in Gabon, and he's being totally ungrateful when he criticizes the U.S. gov. for what they're giving; not showing an iota of thankfulness. Does the author know nearly 50% of children (hundreds of millions of children) in _India_ are malnourished? In India, a completely healthy person who can't find a job, will be left to starve by both government and society. It's a ruthless, cold, heartless nation compared to the government of the U.S. In fact in India, even food meant for the poor is stolen by greedy politicians. It's a terrible country. You should be thankful to be an American, instead of expecting even more from a government that far surpasses most countries in the world in terms of what it does.

acuozzo 14y ago
The fact that other countries provide less does not imply that America currently provides enough.
precisioncoder 14y ago
I always find it a little silly that people assume their country is amazing without looking up the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state if you look at welfar expenditure by GDP you'll notice that it ranks around 26 assuming I counted correctly, behind most of the western world. This is not intended to hate on America, one of the wonderful and horrible things about America is that there is amazing opportunity and terrifying risk to living in the country. Most developed countries even out the risk and reward a little more. I find this fascinating and I wonder how many factors such as innovation, attitude, ambition, etc have related causation (rather than just correlation).

lustlosigkeit 14y ago

My goodness...I am in a similar situation to the lady mentioned in this article, yet arguably more functional, and I haven't even come close to meeting someone who was this tolerant and accepting. Is this guy just very special? I can't figure it out. I alternate between brutal honesty on my condition (the approach of this woman) and hiding it (what I'm going through now), and I'm not sure if it's better or worse either way.

lustlosigkeit 14y ago
Oh geez, I think I figured it out - I hadn't read the whole article fully. I'm pretty aware of people and tend to stay away from "savior" types who think they can come in on a white horse and save the day. As well intentioned as they might be, the behavior often seems unhealthy. I don't know enough about this particular situation but the phrase "I'll throw myself in front of a bus for her if she wants it" seems like a typical thing one of them would say. I often marvel at the dysfunction of seemingly "normal" people going around without any sort of diagnosis, compared to my actual behavior, which is always at least somewhat stigmatized. I hope that for their sake the relationship works out for them, but for my own peace of mind, I push those people away...