11 ms·

> Why are people like that? Are they stupid and don't understand the rules? Or do they think the rules don't apply to them? Speaking for myself, I have no resp

by swombat 14y ago

> Why are people like that? Are they stupid and don't understand the rules? Or do they think the rules don't apply to them? Speaking for myself, I have no respect for authority that does not stem from experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc. Air hosts/hostesses have none of those attributes - they are merely parrotting rules handed down to them, without putting any thought into them. A case in point is the electronic devices rule - clearly nonsensical and stupid. I take it as a good sample of the sense in the other rules being imposed, and therefore revert to my default mode of operation, that applies in most circumstances, unless overridden by someone who appears to deserve to have the power to tell me what to do. In other words, I do what I think is sensible, reasonable. Therefore, yes, I do check my emails before the plane has finished moving and even (gosh!) before the passport gates. I do grab my bag at the first opportunity (though it's usually pointless to do so before the plane has stopped moving - but then it's reason that's stopping me, not rules). I do fit as much as I can get away with into my bag (which generally weighs more than 5kg - but is usually compact and easy to stow because I value those attributes). In other words, I act like the free, responsible human being that I am, and no, I don't care one whit for "the rules" except where I have analysed them and deemed them sensible myself. Here's some good news for you: "the rules" don't apply to you either - not unless you want them to.

jkat 14y ago
I don't disagree with your premise in general....but...The silliness of one rule doesn't, in my mind, invalidate all the other ones. I mean, couldn't you reverse your logic? Find a rule that makes sense (say, no smoking on the plane) and thus summarize that all rules make sense? I keep thinking to myself that flying is a privilege, not a right. But that's probably more a reflection of my own authoritarian views than anything else. Cheers.
- swombat 14y ago
  You're absolutely right, and I didn't say they were all invalidated. All that the silliness of one rule means is that we have to make our own minds up as to which rules are sensible and which are silly. Which was basically my point.
gnaritas 14y ago
So you're a self centered inconsiderate jerk and you're proud of it, how typical. The rules do apply to you, I suggest you figure that out before someone decides to teach you the hard way that everyone else doesn't appreciate you ignoring the rules.
- swombat 14y ago
  Jump to conclusions much? Got some passive aggressive issues perhaps? No one has ever had anything to complain about with respect to my behaviour on planes - not even flight attendants.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    > Jump to conclusions much? When many people make the same assumption you might want to consider whether there's a problem with your post. Your first post makes you sound like a jerk. Such a jerk that people have down voted you for it; called it disappointing; and called you a jerk.
    - swombat 14y ago
      You likely have a point there, though I wonder how much of the backlash is just people piling on to a post that is fading, rather than thinking for themselves. I'd wager that at least half the down votes were by people who didn't read most or the comment.
      - gnaritas 14y ago
        No, you just sound like a jerk.
Scottopherson 14y ago
"Air hosts/hostesses have none of those attributes - they are merely parrotting rules handed down to them, without putting any thought into them." Seriously? They're required to "parrot" the rules; it's their job. If they didn't do so there would probably be even more disrespectful people like you on the plane. They ask very little of you as a passenger; you can still be "free and responsible" without acting like simple rules don't apply to you.
- swombat 14y ago
  I'm not sure where this meme that I'm openly flaunting the rules and being rude came from. I just said I make my own choice about whether to follow the rules, not that I act rudely. If politely asked to do something that seems halfway sensible and is not a major inconvenience or problem, by another fellow human being (flight attendant or not), I will of course do the polite thing.
FuzzyDunlop 14y ago
> Speaking for myself, I have no respect for authority that does not stem from experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc. Air hosts/hostesses have none of those attributes.. s/no respect for authority.../no respect/ Flight attendants have experience of being flight attendants, moreso than you I assume, and they're doing the job they're paid to do (which is in part to enforce those rules).
- Swannie 14y ago
  Flight attendants will have encountered turbulence. Most of them will have seen a major injury because someone didn't have their seat belt on when they were instructed to (usually due to turbulence). Not to mention countless minor injuries. Most will have experienced sudden stops or changes in direction whilst taxi-ing. Most will have seen passengers luggage fall on to other passengers because they got up too soon. They have experience, they all have basic aviation knowledge, a lot of first aid knowledge. The grandfather post is disappointing from swombat.
  - swombat 14y ago
    Funnily enough, those are all things I don't do. I keep my seatbelt on during the flight, and I don't actually pick up my bag during taxying because it's pointless (there's a long wait after the plane stops anyway). And, as pointed out elsewhere, when asked something directly by an attendant, I do it, out of politeness if nothing else. How many flight attendants have observed a plane crashing because of an iPhone? Zero. I have no respect for those kinds orders, for which they have no authority except that handed down by an organisation that has proven relatively stupid when it comes to that topic.
- swombat 14y ago
  I have plenty of respect for flight attendants, actually. I actually do wear my seatbelt through the whole flight, and will of course do whatever they directly order me to. I am polite to a fault, and would never get angry at a flight attendant even if they walk past and ask me to "turn off my kindle". So, yes, I do respect flight attendants, as people. With that out of the way, I don't respect their authority to decide whether a kindle can interfere with aircraft electronics. So I disregard their suggestion to that effect, I have no respect for their authority to make that suggestion. Of course, I still put my kindle away when asked to, but I know I'm being asked to do something nonsensical and every fiber of me, as a free human being, is annoyed by the stupidity of it, and although I respect the request from another human out of politeness, I do not respect the authority behind that rule.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
techsupporter 14y ago
And this is why we can't have nice things. "The rules," as you so aptly scare-quote, are not there solely to govern the actions of a single human being. They are there so that the system, as a whole, functions. A word exists for this: society. Unless the rule is unjust, you are not the final arbiter of whether or not a rule should be followed. What you find sensible and reasonable may not actually _be_ sensible and reasonable beyond first glance. Yes, this rule appears to be monumentally stupid. However, another person in this very thread has raised a good (though possibly misinformed) point regarding frequency intermod. Sometimes we simply can't test all circumstances and the FAA has made a (potentially dumb) judgement call in favor of overwhelming paranoia for safety instead of letting people fling colored birds at green pigs below 10,000 feet. Being free does not give you license to discard that which you, in your own self, deem insensible when you are existing in a space where anyone but yourself exists. You operate in a world with billions of other humans, each with competing goals and diverging motivations. The least you can do is play by the rules that we, as a group, have decided are the compromise. As a bit of site commentary, I notice your post getting more and more grey as people remove points because they disagree. In this instance, I added a point because, though I disagree, I think that your post is a useful addition to the commentary.
- robrenaud 14y ago
  I'd personally love it if society had more people like swombat, rather than fewer. Of course, there is a risk when choosing to ignore rules that you are ignoring them because they you are an inconvenience to you but are generally good for society. Government incented/enforced vaccination would be a good example of such a reasonable though possibly annoying rule. I totally concede that point, and hence, individuals need to be especially mindful about their own self serving biases when choosing to disobey rules. But on the other hand, imagine if rules that effected tens of millions of people all had scientific studies about their tradeoffs, their risks, and their efficiency. How much less bullshit would we have to deal with? I think lots of big innovation is done by rule breakers. It's exactly what pg talks about in point 4 about wanting founders who are naughty. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html
  - 14y ago
polyfractal 14y ago
> In other words, I do what I think is sensible, reasonable. Do you ignore medical advice because it is delivered by a nurse or CNA instead of the doctor himself? The CNA doesn't have experience prescribing medication, and is simply "parroting" information from the doctor. Does that make it less valid? Are you an electrical engineer with experience in RF interference and complex avionics? No? Then you have no more knowledge of the situation than the hostess "parroting" instructions. Any rationalization you have is simply an excuse for being impatient. Also, I hate everyone who grabs their bag immediately and stands up in the aisle. You realize we have another five minutes before the door opens, right? tl;dr: You're kinda an entitled jerk on airplanes, which is one of the reasons I absolutely hate flying. For whatever reason, people like to pretend that they are god's gift to man when flying on an airplane.
- swombat 14y ago
  Do you ignore medical advice because it is delivered by a nurse or CNA instead of the doctor himself? The CNA doesn't have experience prescribing medication, and is simply "parroting" information from the doctor. Does that make it less valid? It depends. I know a couple of doctors personally, and so I double-check medical advice given to me (by nurses or others) with them. Some nurses give pretty awful advice. I have a permanent stiffness in one of my ankles because of crappy medical advice by a nurse. Are you an electrical engineer with experience in RF interference and complex avionics? No? Then you have no more knowledge of the situation than the hostess "parroting" instructions. Any rationalization you have is simply an excuse for being impatient. I have a Masters in Physics, and I built electronics circuits before - yes, I have more knowledge of RF interference than the air hostess parrotting instructions. Beyond the knowledge, simple observation shows that there is no interference problem: most people don't know how to turn off their iPads and Kindles properly, or don't care. Probably about 1/4 of the passengers have one or more devices switched on during take-off and landing - more every month. And yet there has been no recorded increase in airplane crashes. Also, I hate everyone who grabs their bag immediately and stands up in the aisle. You realize we have another five minutes before the door opens, right? Yep - and I want to spend that five minutes able to focus my mind somewhere else (e.g. my phone) rather than glancing expectantly at the luggage rack waiting for my chance to scurry and pick up my bag. Once the line starts moving, I want to be one of those people who just moves - not one of those jerks who then proceeds to spend 30 seconds blocking the line to fish out their bag and slows everyone else down. tl;dr: You're kinda an entitled jerk on airplanes, which is one of the reasons I absolutely hate flying. For whatever reason, people like to pretend that they are god's gift to man when flying on an airplane. I've made it a policy to not read tl;dr;s. It's a recent thing. Did I miss something of value in there?
georgebarnett 14y ago
In general, rules either exist for the benefit of an individual or of society in general. If you think the rules that benefit society in general do not apply to you simply because you disagree with them then you are nothing more than a common arsehole.
- swombat 14y ago
  Nope. You have a very strange view of rules. Who taught you that that's why they exist? Rules exist because someone (or a group of someones) decided to make them exist. There is no necessity that the rule be actually for the benefit of anyone, though most societies try to require rules to at least seem vaguely beneficial before adopting them. A month in any corporation should make it obvious that rules and benefits are entirely orthogonal concepts, much of the time.
swombat 14y ago
First off, to all the downvoters: great to see you piling on like sheep. Ask yourself: is my comment spam? Otherwise offensive? Or is it a reasonably well argued point that you disagree with? If you downvoted simply because you disagree with it, think about what you've done. Go slap yourself. You deserve it. You should be ashamed of yourself for your gregarious, ostracising behaviour.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > Air hosts/hostesses have none of those attributes - they are merely parrotting rules handed down to them, without putting any thought into them. Those people cannot - are not allowed to, on pain of dismissal from their job and heavy fines for their company - make allowances for the rules. Ranting about low wage employees who are forced to apply rules (whether they like it or not) just because you don't see the point of those rules makes you sound like the kind of person who deserves a good solid down vote. > I don't care one whit for "the rules" except where I have analysed them and deemed them sensible myself. When's the last time you escaped from a burning aircraft? Why should I trust my life to your "analysis"?
  - swombat 14y ago
    Hold your fucking horses. I'll get to replying to these points as I work my way down the thread. Geesh. Have some patience.

by swombat 14y ago

jkat 14y ago

I don't disagree with your premise in general....but...The silliness of one rule doesn't, in my mind, invalidate all the other ones. I mean, couldn't you reverse your logic? Find a rule that makes sense (say, no smoking on the plane) and thus summarize that all rules make sense? I keep thinking to myself that flying is a privilege, not a right. But that's probably more a reflection of my own authoritarian views than anything else. Cheers.

swombat 14y ago
You're absolutely right, and I didn't say they were all invalidated. All that the silliness of one rule means is that we have to make our own minds up as to which rules are sensible and which are silly. Which was basically my point.

gnaritas 14y ago

So you're a self centered inconsiderate jerk and you're proud of it, how typical. The rules do apply to you, I suggest you figure that out before someone decides to teach you the hard way that everyone else doesn't appreciate you ignoring the rules.

swombat 14y ago
Jump to conclusions much? Got some passive aggressive issues perhaps? No one has ever had anything to complain about with respect to my behaviour on planes - not even flight attendants.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > Jump to conclusions much? When many people make the same assumption you might want to consider whether there's a problem with your post. Your first post makes you sound like a jerk. Such a jerk that people have down voted you for it; called it disappointing; and called you a jerk.
  - swombat 14y ago
    You likely have a point there, though I wonder how much of the backlash is just people piling on to a post that is fading, rather than thinking for themselves. I'd wager that at least half the down votes were by people who didn't read most or the comment.
    - gnaritas 14y ago
      No, you just sound like a jerk.

Scottopherson 14y ago

"Air hosts/hostesses have none of those attributes - they are merely parrotting rules handed down to them, without putting any thought into them." Seriously? They're required to "parrot" the rules; it's their job. If they didn't do so there would probably be even more disrespectful people like you on the plane. They ask very little of you as a passenger; you can still be "free and responsible" without acting like simple rules don't apply to you.

swombat 14y ago
I'm not sure where this meme that I'm openly flaunting the rules and being rude came from. I just said I make my own choice about whether to follow the rules, not that I act rudely. If politely asked to do something that seems halfway sensible and is not a major inconvenience or problem, by another fellow human being (flight attendant or not), I will of course do the polite thing.

FuzzyDunlop 14y ago

> Speaking for myself, I have no respect for authority that does not stem from experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc. Air hosts/hostesses have none of those attributes.. s/no respect for authority.../no respect/ Flight attendants have experience of being flight attendants, moreso than you I assume, and they're doing the job they're paid to do (which is in part to enforce those rules).

Swannie 14y ago
Flight attendants will have encountered turbulence. Most of them will have seen a major injury because someone didn't have their seat belt on when they were instructed to (usually due to turbulence). Not to mention countless minor injuries. Most will have experienced sudden stops or changes in direction whilst taxi-ing. Most will have seen passengers luggage fall on to other passengers because they got up too soon. They have experience, they all have basic aviation knowledge, a lot of first aid knowledge. The grandfather post is disappointing from swombat.
- swombat 14y ago
  Funnily enough, those are all things I don't do. I keep my seatbelt on during the flight, and I don't actually pick up my bag during taxying because it's pointless (there's a long wait after the plane stops anyway). And, as pointed out elsewhere, when asked something directly by an attendant, I do it, out of politeness if nothing else. How many flight attendants have observed a plane crashing because of an iPhone? Zero. I have no respect for those kinds orders, for which they have no authority except that handed down by an organisation that has proven relatively stupid when it comes to that topic.
swombat 14y ago
I have plenty of respect for flight attendants, actually. I actually do wear my seatbelt through the whole flight, and will of course do whatever they directly order me to. I am polite to a fault, and would never get angry at a flight attendant even if they walk past and ask me to "turn off my kindle". So, yes, I do respect flight attendants, as people. With that out of the way, I don't respect their authority to decide whether a kindle can interfere with aircraft electronics. So I disregard their suggestion to that effect, I have no respect for their authority to make that suggestion. Of course, I still put my kindle away when asked to, but I know I'm being asked to do something nonsensical and every fiber of me, as a free human being, is annoyed by the stupidity of it, and although I respect the request from another human out of politeness, I do not respect the authority behind that rule.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

techsupporter 14y ago

And this is why we can't have nice things. "The rules," as you so aptly scare-quote, are not there solely to govern the actions of a single human being. They are there so that the system, as a whole, functions. A word exists for this: society. Unless the rule is unjust, you are not the final arbiter of whether or not a rule should be followed. What you find sensible and reasonable may not actually _be_ sensible and reasonable beyond first glance. Yes, this rule appears to be monumentally stupid. However, another person in this very thread has raised a good (though possibly misinformed) point regarding frequency intermod. Sometimes we simply can't test all circumstances and the FAA has made a (potentially dumb) judgement call in favor of overwhelming paranoia for safety instead of letting people fling colored birds at green pigs below 10,000 feet. Being free does not give you license to discard that which you, in your own self, deem insensible when you are existing in a space where anyone but yourself exists. You operate in a world with billions of other humans, each with competing goals and diverging motivations. The least you can do is play by the rules that we, as a group, have decided are the compromise. As a bit of site commentary, I notice your post getting more and more grey as people remove points because they disagree. In this instance, I added a point because, though I disagree, I think that your post is a useful addition to the commentary.

robrenaud 14y ago
I'd personally love it if society had more people like swombat, rather than fewer. Of course, there is a risk when choosing to ignore rules that you are ignoring them because they you are an inconvenience to you but are generally good for society. Government incented/enforced vaccination would be a good example of such a reasonable though possibly annoying rule. I totally concede that point, and hence, individuals need to be especially mindful about their own self serving biases when choosing to disobey rules. But on the other hand, imagine if rules that effected tens of millions of people all had scientific studies about their tradeoffs, their risks, and their efficiency. How much less bullshit would we have to deal with? I think lots of big innovation is done by rule breakers. It's exactly what pg talks about in point 4 about wanting founders who are naughty. [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html
- 14y ago

polyfractal 14y ago

> In other words, I do what I think is sensible, reasonable. Do you ignore medical advice because it is delivered by a nurse or CNA instead of the doctor himself? The CNA doesn't have experience prescribing medication, and is simply "parroting" information from the doctor. Does that make it less valid? Are you an electrical engineer with experience in RF interference and complex avionics? No? Then you have no more knowledge of the situation than the hostess "parroting" instructions. Any rationalization you have is simply an excuse for being impatient. Also, I hate everyone who grabs their bag immediately and stands up in the aisle. You realize we have another five minutes before the door opens, right? tl;dr: You're kinda an entitled jerk on airplanes, which is one of the reasons I absolutely hate flying. For whatever reason, people like to pretend that they are god's gift to man when flying on an airplane.

swombat 14y ago
Do you ignore medical advice because it is delivered by a nurse or CNA instead of the doctor himself? The CNA doesn't have experience prescribing medication, and is simply "parroting" information from the doctor. Does that make it less valid? It depends. I know a couple of doctors personally, and so I double-check medical advice given to me (by nurses or others) with them. Some nurses give pretty awful advice. I have a permanent stiffness in one of my ankles because of crappy medical advice by a nurse. Are you an electrical engineer with experience in RF interference and complex avionics? No? Then you have no more knowledge of the situation than the hostess "parroting" instructions. Any rationalization you have is simply an excuse for being impatient. I have a Masters in Physics, and I built electronics circuits before - yes, I have more knowledge of RF interference than the air hostess parrotting instructions. Beyond the knowledge, simple observation shows that there is no interference problem: most people don't know how to turn off their iPads and Kindles properly, or don't care. Probably about 1/4 of the passengers have one or more devices switched on during take-off and landing - more every month. And yet there has been no recorded increase in airplane crashes. Also, I hate everyone who grabs their bag immediately and stands up in the aisle. You realize we have another five minutes before the door opens, right? Yep - and I want to spend that five minutes able to focus my mind somewhere else (e.g. my phone) rather than glancing expectantly at the luggage rack waiting for my chance to scurry and pick up my bag. Once the line starts moving, I want to be one of those people who just moves - not one of those jerks who then proceeds to spend 30 seconds blocking the line to fish out their bag and slows everyone else down. tl;dr: You're kinda an entitled jerk on airplanes, which is one of the reasons I absolutely hate flying. For whatever reason, people like to pretend that they are god's gift to man when flying on an airplane. I've made it a policy to not read tl;dr;s. It's a recent thing. Did I miss something of value in there?

georgebarnett 14y ago

In general, rules either exist for the benefit of an individual or of society in general. If you think the rules that benefit society in general do not apply to you simply because you disagree with them then you are nothing more than a common arsehole.

swombat 14y ago
Nope. You have a very strange view of rules. Who taught you that that's why they exist? Rules exist because someone (or a group of someones) decided to make them exist. There is no necessity that the rule be actually for the benefit of anyone, though most societies try to require rules to at least seem vaguely beneficial before adopting them. A month in any corporation should make it obvious that rules and benefits are entirely orthogonal concepts, much of the time.

swombat 14y ago

First off, to all the downvoters: great to see you piling on like sheep. Ask yourself: is my comment spam? Otherwise offensive? Or is it a reasonably well argued point that you disagree with? If you downvoted simply because you disagree with it, think about what you've done. Go slap yourself. You deserve it. You should be ashamed of yourself for your gregarious, ostracising behaviour.

DanBC 14y ago
> Air hosts/hostesses have none of those attributes - they are merely parrotting rules handed down to them, without putting any thought into them. Those people cannot - are not allowed to, on pain of dismissal from their job and heavy fines for their company - make allowances for the rules. Ranting about low wage employees who are forced to apply rules (whether they like it or not) just because you don't see the point of those rules makes you sound like the kind of person who deserves a good solid down vote. > I don't care one whit for "the rules" except where I have analysed them and deemed them sensible myself. When's the last time you escaped from a burning aircraft? Why should I trust my life to your "analysis"?
- swombat 14y ago
  Hold your fucking horses. I'll get to replying to these points as I work my way down the thread. Geesh. Have some patience.